To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

You have professional experience- you tell us!

Maybe Bertrand the experience that Decomposing cites is not as extensive as she first implied, certainly she seems to be bending facts a little, as for example in her earlier statement which led into her extensive use of the anti-abortion regret stories, which it seems are so commonly used by anti-abortion advocates that they might as well be in the anti-abortion manual – similar to the things that car salesman are trained to spout to persuade people to buy!

I’ve seen girls and women post op. Too many came round from the anaesthetic crying about what happened

Of course, realise now what’s not mentioned here by Decomposing is the fact that crying and/or mental confusion are common side-effects of General Anaesthetics – odd that a nurse wouldn’t think to mention that part!

“I heard so many stories like this, crying after anesthesia was beginning to sound like a thing.

I asked around a bit, and found out that nurses who work in recovery rooms are very familiar with this. “As patients are coming out of anesthesia, I notice sometimes tears rolling down their cheeks to outward bawling,” said Esmihan Almontaser, a nurse educator in the post op care unit at Jefferson University Hospital.”

whyy.org/segments/why-do-some-patients-cry-after-anesthesia/

In factsheets on what can happen when coming round from general anaesthetic, there are side-effects/after-effects which can last for days or weeks, one common side-effect/after-effect is what’s called Post-operative delirium which includes “emotional changes such as tearfulness, anxiety, anger or aggression”

Factsheet from Royal College of Anaesthetists www.rcoa.ac.uk/system/files/07-Confused2017.pdf

Are you absolutely sure that you support freedom of choice for women decomposing? Because so far you’ve given examples but obscured the full facts and you’ve kept on plugging the ‘Regret story’ – both common tactics by anti-abortion groups – in fact US groups come over to train UK groups on how to use these kinds of tactics, omissions and misleading emotive examples. And the 'regret' tactic is so common there are, as per my previous thread, articles on how anti-abortionists use it.

lyra I'm really sorry that happened to you .

I had a scan beforehand too. They asked if I wanted to see the screen, I declined and my wishes were respected. That's how it should be - I'm glad your complaint was taken seriously.

You cant use regret threads on here as any kind of evidence. For all those women who post about regret there will be thousands more who dont regret and therefore dont post about their abortion because all they feel is relief.

A friend of mine had three very late miscarriages. When her first DC was born she was so thrilled that she TTC straight away. She ended up with three under three.

We had a talk about how hard those miscarriages were. She made the point that however distressing it was to lose the babies she dreamed of, there was zero comparison to the thought of one or all of her DC dying. She said that she thought it was just as bad before she became a mother, but totally changed her opinion afterwards.

A woman who has had three late miscarriages may be very sad about it. My friend certainly was. But a woman whose three children all died for whatever reason would be a complete basket case. You wouldn't expect her to get over it.

A miscarriage isn't a baby. It's a potential baby and when you lose it you're not grieving for the foetus, you're grieving for the baby you thought you'd have, the future it doesn't have.

You seem to go ahead with procedures while unhappy with the explanations, but you don’t do anything to have them explained in a more accessible way. That’s not a fault of the rules the HCPs follow.

Because you only know what you are told don't you? How can you question what you don't know? Yes in the instance of the colonoscopy I did know more than I was told. I understood the full implications, but because of prior knowledge not because of what they told me.

In the case of the back surgery I believed what I was told. As do the majority of patients.

The onus is on the HCP to provide the information to obtain informed consent. It isn't the patient's fault if that process isn't followed correctly.

Basically what you are saying is that it is the responsibility of each patient to educate themselves fully about the risks and implications of the procedure. If they don't then it is their fault, not the HCP?

No I'm saying that.

I'm saying that any possible risks are in the consent form and the patient can ask if they don't understand it. They are obtaining informed consent but if the patient does not understand then the patient needs to ask.

Dottierichardson

I have explained the full extent of my experience. I have not pretended to be an expert. I have also said this was what I witnessed immediately after the procedure and those women may well have felt differently later on.

What is wrong with that?

As for crying post anaesthetic - I have not seen it, to this extent, after other surgeries. Yes, patients were sometimes confused or agitated. Sometimes they cried usually due to pain. Mainly it was children who cried.

This was different though in that they expressed distress due to the circumstance.

This is my experience. It is not a peer reviewed study. I have no way if knowing if it persisted.

For the last time, I am pro choice. At the same time, I do also worry for the women who regret their choice.

It also worries me how determined you, and other posters are, to wilfully ignore these women. Why is that? Why would you not care that some women are harmed by this and want to make sure, that as far as possible, the system tries to minimise this?

I don't know how the system could be organised to make it as quick and unobtrusive as possible yet still safe?

“Maybe Bertrand the experience that Decomposing cites is not as extensive as she first implied“

Indeed. It was much easier to spot pro lifers in the old days before they got media training. But their true colours always emerge at some stage.

One question I've asked those who are anti abortion on religious grounds is "What does your congregation do about miscarriages? Do you have funerals, a special service?"

Because AFAIK no church or other religious groups observes miscarriages in the way they would observe the death of a child.

Miscarriage is considered an entirely private matter with no need for religious services or even acknowledgement. But if a woman wants to have an abortion all of a sudden the foetus is the same as a child - a position entirely incompatible with the way their religion deals with miscarriage.

Far more pregnancies are lost by natural causes than are aborted. If each fertilized egg = a baby then surely raising a huge fund to research why some eggs fail to implant and remedying this would be far more urgent and important than abortion?

But no. Because it's not actually about the embryo at all. It's about controlling sexually active women, the sluts

@DecomposingComposers
I think the concept of informed consent is important regarding abortion but this is also true for women who choose to continue on with a pregnancy and therefore any counselling should give a balanced view of what abortion, pregnancy, childbirth and raising children is like.

There are many threads on this forum where women have admitted that they regret having children and lament the impact that children have had on their lives. Regret definitely runs both ways and I think it's impossible to know for sure how you will feel about having an abortion or having a child until you have past the point of no return. It's the nature of the beast unfortunately.

There is also the other risks a woman takes when choosing to continue a pregnancy A significant proportion of women will suffer long term physical and mental health conditions as a direct result of pregnancy and birth. The woman is rolling the dice with regards to hypermesis, SPD, incontinence, prolapses, PND, adhesions etc. Any counselling should include relevant stats on all of these things if a woman is to make a truly informed decision.

Crying isn't an indicator that it was a bad decision for them. You can be sad and still have made the best decision available to you.

Indeed, Bertrand - I was only thinking last night that hardly anyone ever admits to being a pro-lifer on the Internet anymore. It's all "I'm pro-choice but I think too many women use abortion as contraception" or "I'm 100 per cent pro-choice but I can tell from your post that you really want to keep your baby deep down" .

It's like anti-vaxxers. They'll never say they're anti-vaccination, they "just want it to be made safer" in some vague way that they'll never explain.

ChardonnaysPrettySister

And I'm saying in my experience that the risks are minimised and down played and presented as no big deal. So the patient might think they are fully informed, no further explanation required (as I felt) until it all went tits up and the shit hit the fan. Then you realise exactly how much wasn't explained. In my case, the Dr had no experience of the complication. He didn't know that it could be permanent and he didn't know what the treatment was. I was referred to a colleague of his who phoned him during my consultation - when the treatment was explained to us both, my original Dr was shocked. Given that lack of knowledge how could he possibly have explained it properly to me?

The onus is on the HCP to explain and obtain consent. It is not on the patient. Yes, if it is explained properly and the patient doesn't understand they need to ask questions but if it isn't explained or risks are glossed over then the patient may not have the knowledge to question it.

How are risks explained in abortions? They explain the risk of perforation I assume? Do they explore that further though?

This step in America has made me sick to my stomach.
Abortions will go back street again.

They are not Pro-Life how dare they even call themselves that when they have guns and the death penalty.

They are Pro-Birth only but they are not lining up to support the unwanted children once they are born...nope that's all going to be on the woman that was forced into the pregnancy or the Care system.

I was in America a few weeks ago and saw a protest of "Pro-Life Feminists" like wtf?? How does that even work?

BertrandRussell

Read my posts. You can see exactly what I said about my experience. I haven't, exaggerated it or pretended it was more than it was.

If I were pro life then I would be describing what I saw and what I had to do during those procedures. But I don't. So just back off with all your snidey little digs.

They explain the risk of perforation I assume? Do they explore that further though?

Yes, they do, they also tell you that if anything life threatening happens you will be transferred to a hospital, unless you are in one.

If you are not happy with the consent procedure don't sign it and don't have it.

Crying isn't an indicator that it was a bad decision for them. You can be sad and still have made the best decision available to you.

Yeah you can. I wish I could have followed those women up and seen that they realised it was the right decision.

It is difficult to live with the fact that you participated in something that potentially harmed another person. I hope that all of those women can see it as the right choice for them.

Here's that Times article referenced above - I was able to get access and thought folk who can't might like to read it. I've highlighted bits which I think are relevant:

"Women should be able to book an abortion without seeing a GP or having counselling, according to NHS guidance designed to speed up terminations.

Tens of thousands of women should also be able to take abortion pills at home, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (Nice) has recommended after a legal change last year.

Terminations should be carried out within two weeks of a woman requesting one, according to its first guidance on abortion. About 193,000 women in England and Wales have an abortion each year, a figure that has been stable in recent years. Two thirds of abortions are performed “medically” by taking two pills a few days apart

Last year Matt Hancock, the health secretary, said that the second pill could be taken at home rather than in hospital and the guidance urges clinics to allow this for women who are less than ten weeks pregnant. This would include most of those who have an abortion

Women should also be able to refer themselves to clinics to save them waiting for a GP appointment and avoid any “negative attitudes from healthcare professionals”. They should not be told to have counselling before a termination if their mind is made up

DF was a doctor working in obstetrics before the Abortion Act came in. Every few weeks in a regular pattern there'd be a flurry of emergency admissions which the staff assumed were the result of a traveling abortionist. It seemed lot of the abortionist's patients were fine. It was the screw ups that turned up, some in a very bad way.

He (and other staff) felt a lot of empathy for these women. They would shield them when police officers turned up, insisting that there was no way they could be sure that the pregnancy loss was the product of intervention. They would tell the women that they were protected by patient confidentiality - basically warn them not to admit anything, as this was one of the only ways the police were able to bring a case if the medical staff wouldn't play ball.

DF was so delighted when the Abortion Act came in in 1967. The first patient he referred was a married woman who had four adult DC. She just couldn't face going through it all over again.

ChardonnaysPrettySister

I take it you mean that they explain what the treatment of a perforation is rather than just saying perforation is a risk?

If they do then fair enough. Again, in my experience the risks have been outlined but not the treatment or implications of those risks, should they occur.

This is my experience. It is not a peer reviewed study. I have no way if knowing if it persisted.

But as a nurse you should surely know that patients are just as likely to appear to be grieving, cry and be overly-emotional when they come out of General Anaesthetic from an appendectomy or toe surgery as from a termination. OR should we be delaying those so that we're absolutely sure that the patient wants to part with the appendix, get the toe fixed and so on?

But as a nurse you should surely know that patients are just as likely to appear to be grieving, cry and be overly-emotional when they come out of General Anaesthetic from an appendectomy or toe surgery as from a termination

I was inconsolable after my last GA and I certainly didn’t want my wisdom teeth back.

I wasn’t the only one in the recovery area crying either. I thought it was a very very common occurrence after GA

Morning everyone. We aren't convinced this OP is posting here genuinely and this thread feels a bit designed to provoke an argument. We're going to take it down now.

Dottierichardson

I have never seen a patient grieving following an appendicectomy, not tie surgery. No. So that is just ridiculous.

And actually that minimises how some (not all) women feel about this. For some (not all) it is a big deal and not at all similar to toe surgery.

If I were pro life then I would be describing what I saw and what I had to do during those procedures. But I don't

This belies your feelings. There’s something really unsavoury about this.

Also:
Why do you assume we don’t know exactly how abortions happen?