To think friends child should be out of nappies

[FreshAprilStart]

Context. My friend is brilliant. Such a great mum, does so much with her children and very loving and kind. But. She gets very anxious about them and managing change.

When asked, I've always been reassuring about things like co-sleeping and so on and fussy eating and saying it all falls into place in time which it usually does.

The thing is that her DD is quite tall for her age and nearly 4 now but is still in nappies. No issues or special needs. The nursery has even said they want to get her out of nappies soon as it's now becoming noticed by other kids. My friend just ignores it all.

I've been as supportive as I can, soothing and encouraging but she seems stuck in the 'it's fine at this age' and won't tackle it. I'm getting more and more frustrated when she seeks more assurances. Her DD is adorable but I'm beginning to think she'll be in nappies at school at this rate.

Would you say something or stay out of it?

I would say it's not really your business. Also I would say if the child was in reusables she would probably be out of them by now, as they feel wet and uncomfortable, whereas the disposable is almost too comfy!

I have plenty of direct experience of SN, thank you.

In any case according to the OP the mother hasn’t even tried to train the child, so SN aren’t a factor that we know of.

So are primary school teachers supposed to change pupils’ nappies?? Or are the parents meant to come in and do it? What if they’re at work? This is eye opening to me, not judging just never thought about it before.

I agree, graziemille1.

Kids do things in their own time and pushing before they’re ready isn’t helpful.

My son was nearer to 4 than 3 by when he was toilet trained. He’s a tall lad, very clever but just had no interest in toilet training. We tried a few times but he’d get so distressed that I’d just cave and put a nappy on (I’ll admit it was also a bit of a “owt for for a quiet life” thing on my part as well).

The good thing was that when he was ready it was done in a day. Literally took the nappy off and said we use the toilet now and that was it. Not a single accident and no potty’s.

It is quite frankly bizarre that an otherwise attentive parent of a normally developing child wouldn't have even started potty training by 4

I would guess OP was just being kind when she said her friend is so great otherwise. I would bet my life that there's other things but OP doesn't want to be lynched by people saying she's unkind.

Parents who have successfully potty trained their children at 2 are not lucky. They are responsible parents who have taken responsibility for teaching their children the use of the toilet at an appropriate time. Being in nappies at aged 4 is not okay and not normal (unless SN). Parents should stop normalising it and encouraging it by making excuses for their own failings and the failings of fellow inept parents. It’s a growing trend and not one which any parent should be proud. Children don’t decide when they toilet train or learn other things. The parents teach them.

I think if your friend is actually asking you if this is fine, it's perfectly reasonable to say that you think it's not really fine, and is there a reason she hasn't done potty training yet? Also, if the kid is 4 and has no additional needs, potty training is likely to be very quick and straightforward. At that point you could ask if she needs any help working out how to go about it and be supportive in her efforts.

That's very different from just pushing in on the subject without being asked.

Stop judging.

A friend of mine let her morbidly obese 5 year old start school in Tena pants for men... Then complain how its unfair they didn't do nappies for 8 stone 4 yr olds child was not SN and the mother was furious the GP said she was neglectful for not considering the child's needs, and thinking of her own laziness - shockingly she told me all this like she was a victim

It is quite frankly bizarre that an otherwise attentive parent of a normally developing child wouldn't have even started potty training by 4

It seems to be a bit of a trend. I know of a family who have done the same and a DF of mine who is a teacher has a few children in class who are NT but still in nappies (she simply refuses to change nappies so the TA spends a lot of her day doing it). It’s something about not pushing the child into things and basically letting them do what they like, like gentle parenting to the extreme. I find it weird that you wouldn’t have tried potty training by 4, but also my otherwise very bright and capable dd is nearly 4 and is still really unreliable for wees to the point I’m wondering if there’s a physical problem! So I can’t be too judgemental.

It's odd that she hasn't made an attempt. Whilst there may be an undiagnosed condition or other factor you don't know about, I think most parents would have made at least one attempt at potty training by now, even if it wasn't successful. There is little to lose in trying a gentle attempt.

You said your friend isn't generally good with change. Does this show in other areas of her life?

So are primary school teachers supposed to change pupils’ nappies?

That's what really concerns me about this debate. Teachers (and also TA's) aren't there to change nappies, they're supposed to be teaching!

I'm assuming this child is starting school in September? If so, getting her toilet-trained should be a priority; if she'd starting in 2020, they have more time.

My DS didn't manage it until he was almost four. We tried a few times, and eventually the nursery offered to try it as they thought he might get the idea if he did it along with a couple of his little playmates: nursery was starting two or three other children that week so I just sent him in with three pairs of trousers and three pairs of pants, and he'd got the hang of it, for daytime at least, within a few days.

He is also on the autism spectrum but we only got an actual diagnosis last month.

My sons are all toilet trained now, in their 20s . But they were slow. My youngest was really late, began school at 5 and was still having accidents. His speech was very precocious too and we had no real concerns about his development. His older brother was also slow to be properly toilet trained but we knew his development was delayed fairly significantly. Low and behold, at around 7 the youngest was diagnosed with HFA and the reason for the mismatch in his skills became clearer.

Dd was the same no SEN issues either. Overnight she just stopped bedwetting. Had a couple hit and misses over the course of a few weeks. It soon became a distant memory. That being said that was only overnight. She was 3 by the time she was dry during the day. I would stay out of it to be honest as it does seem quite judgy.

My point: children who are late reaching certain goals mights have a hidden special need. It’s not for you or me to diagnose it though. We actually did take youngest to GP at 12/3 as he was wetting at night still. He was referred to urology and within weeks he was dry! It must just have been time.

@graziemille1
You honestly sound a bit ignorant. Yes there are parents who just can't be bothered toilet training their children but there are also children, who although they have no SN are simply not ready at 4 (they're certainly a minority and both of mine were toilet trained without any accidents at all before 3). There are plenty of (non SN related) reasons a child may not be ready. Some are just a little physically delayed in this area and don't feel the urge or are unable to control it until a little later. Some have anxiety related to using toilets, some suffer from withholding due to constipation, some will go on to be diagnosed with SN as they get older.

Being judgemental won't help. The parents that haven't potty trained because they're lazy and they don't care won't care about your judgement either and the parents who are already stressed and anxious about their child's potty training will get more stressed and anxious which will likely transfer to the child.

I would just stay out of it. Having had one child with training issues and one without.
My DC who took a long time was not obviously SN and took years to get diagnosed. Even now people do not realise that my DC has got any SN - even after I tell them, they say they still can't tell. Plus some kids just have an overactive bladder.
I can't beleive that the parent wouldn't have tried potty training at all. It's more likely that they have tried, but the child just isn't getting it and they are having a break, which is what we were told to do, as we were told forcing a child to do it when they are not ready can cause psychological problems.

OP has said the girl asks to be changed so she's aware she's wet or dirty, for her mum not to be directing her to the toilet is very odd. She sounds more than able to use a toilet, sounds like the mum has issues.

.

The issue isn’t whether or not toilet training is successful by the magic age of the September when they are 4. It’s that it has not even been attempted. How can the dm or anyone even know if there is an issue if she doesn’t even try it?
I would be honest with her when she brings it up.
True friends do not pretend to agree with everything from fear of falling out.

Generally speaking the vast majority of children who are nearly 4 should be trained and to not try is lazy, there’s no real excuse not to have made at the very least a bloody good effort.

Bloody hell there's some really appalling ignorant, judgmental even disablist posts (and against disabled children!) on this thread - disgusting!

It's NOT just Sen - which are often undx at this age anyway - there's any number of other conditions which could be complicating matters.

My dd was a late toilet trainer, not dry in day until 4 and not dry at night until about 6, I later learned likely due to her then undx physical disability.

I worried at the time and even queried with dr and HV (who with hindsight I'm pissed off they didn't put this together with other symptoms to Dx the disability - whole other thread!)

So as a non hcp (and clearly even the hcps get it wrong) you cannot possibly know there's not a medical reason.

Support your friend, perhaps discuss with her IF she clearly asks, what she's tried so far and what the outcomes were - which could be revealing of a potential medical issue - and encourage her to seek help from hcps if it seems necessary.

But stop with the assumptions that there isn't a reason beyond her and her child's control.

You're not I don't think a medical expert yourself?

"whereas to me the size of her DD says she is far too developed for nappies." Physical size has NOTHING to do with maturity, brain development etc I don't know where you're getting that idea from?

Language acquisition and other unrelated skills ALSO has NOTHING To do with it, my dd was talking in sentences and even multisyllabic words from 2, counting up to 20, excellent climber (again quite possibly due to her condition) - none of which meant the issue affecting toilet training didn't exist!

My dd is very tall and always has been BECAUSE of her condition, she was in age 6 trousers at age 4 for the length, I had to alter the waists as she's also very slim, there are many Sen conditions where being tall/big is also a symptom. In fact I'm wondering if your friends child's appearance IS symptomatic in some way.

You sound very judgmental while also being very ignorant medically.

Frankly if what you're saying about the nursery is accurate they too should know better!

"Just tell her. If there’s no SN there’s no reason" gah! AGAIN many children are still undx for Sen AND other medical conditions at this age, it's incredibly hard even getting assessed let alone a dx!

And AGAIN it's NOT JUST SEN that can make it difficult.

Dd FINALLY was dx with her GENETIC physical disability, which I now know from learning about the condition myself (and I'm still learning not least because so are the experts in it!) she ALSO had CLEAR physical appearance markers and symptoms AT BIRTH, when she was...12!!!

And THAT was a combination of me losing the plot with her suffering symptoms and needing time off school as a result AND us being LUCKY to meet with a locum GP with an interest in the medical specialism it fell under and giving us the referral I'd been asking for for years!

I've no personal experience with Sen but from friends with dc with Sen and also reading here and elsewhere I'm aware it can be an absolute bloody nightmare getting even a referral let alone a dx for those too.

Hell I've read on here of ADULTS in their 20's/30's/40's getting dx with Sen, I've a friend who wasn't dx with aspergers until her 40's, another who was dx with dyslexia and dyspraxia in her 30's.

So unqualified and inexperienced people claiming online that this child clearly has no medical issues is beyond ridiculous!