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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Not going to nephew's holy communion

310 replies

ILCTM · 20/04/2019 21:04

We've been invited to my nephew's Holy Communion in a couple of weeks time - he's 7. It's my husband's sister's son and my husband says he doesn't want to go.

She's an Anglican Christian but it's being done in a Catholic church that her mum attends.

My husband was christened as a baby and attended church every Sunday, and he really resents it. He says that it should be up to the child to decide if they want to be part of any religion. He is an atheist and doesn't feel that anyone should be christened until they decide that they want to be, which I totally get.

I'm also not religious at all. The only people going to my nephew's Holy Communion are his mum (obviously) and his nan and grandad (who attend the church where he's being christened).

My husband's mum has said that he should respect the fact that it's his sister's choice to have her child christened and to receive holy communion and that he should go, but he says that he does respect her choice, but he says that she should respect his choice not to go as he doesn't agree with it.

My husband is very black and white, there is no in between. Is it unreasonable to not go? I do feel a bit bad, but then I'm not as black and white as him.

OP posts:

BertrandRussell · 23/04/2019 19:45

Atheists are not supposed to be bastions of tolerance and rationality. They just don’t believe in a god or gods. Nothing more-nothing less. They can believe in other insane things -homeopathy, astrology, phrenology. Just not god.

pallisers · 23/04/2019 20:14

No. Nobody thinks that. HTH.

But presumably this "indoctrination" does not involve taking him each week to the local feminist meet-up group, requiring him to join the David Bowie fan club, or expecting him to be able to explain the various ethical bases for vegetarianism!

That is why I posted what I did Bertrand. But clearly you agree then that atheists do pass on their values and beliefs with regard to religion even if it doesn't involve bringing their children to "atheist ceremonies and services" So yes you did help - thanks.

FiddlesticksAkimbo · 23/04/2019 20:38

Hi Pallisers,

Possibly the misunderstanding here is that atheism is the natural default! It does not rely on values or beiefs. It's an absence of values or beliefs surrounding a deity. There's nothing to pass on. It's a neutral state.

I'm guessing that you don't pass on to your darling children your state of indifference towards the galaxy DV492? If they are indifferent about it their indifference is innate!

BertrandRussell · 23/04/2019 20:39

Atheists don’t have “values and beliefs”. The only thing that makes an atheist an atheist is an lack of a belief in god. Nothing else. I share many of my values and beliefs with my children and I hope that they take some of them on board. But they are completely unconnected to my atheism.

NewAccount270219 · 23/04/2019 20:46

I'm guessing that you don't pass on to your darling children your state of indifference towards the galaxy DV492? If they are indifferent about it their indifference is innate!

This would be true in a world where everyone cared as much about religion as about the galaxy DV492. That isn't our world. It's like assuming your children will grow up with no ideas about gender roles if you don't ever talk to them about them. Or that they'll be naturally entirely free of racial prejudice if you never mention the concept of race to them. It might be true if you and your children lived in a hut with no other human contact, but it isn't true in a world where, historically and to a large extent still today, religion is one of the single most significant cultural forces we have.

NewAccount270219 · 23/04/2019 20:53

I also think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that atheism is a totally neutral stance with no moral component or judgement to it in a thread where you've said you will - when provoked, apparently - 'sneer' at all religions. It's very clear that you do think it makes you intellectually and morally superior.

Joey2412 · 23/04/2019 21:02

I'm in a very similar position apart from it's the confirmation if my husbands bephew( one they do at 13yrs). We are not planning on going. Not because I don't agree with religion ( although I don't) but more because I don't see why it's relevant for me to be there. I see it as a more immediate family thing - parents, siblings only. It's not the same as a christening or wedding. We would also be expected to take a monetary gift. None of my children are raised catholic so don't get this extra gift at each stage ( christening, holy communion, confirmation) which appears to be substantial from my in laws.

mummmy2017 · 23/04/2019 21:08

Never in my family have we been expected to attend a command performance of a child doing church...
It should be parents and grand parents, not every family member you can drag in...
Just tell them it is not something you wish to attend, and you hope they have a nice day

FiddlesticksAkimbo · 23/04/2019 23:52

It might be true if you and your children lived in a hut with no other human contact, but it isn't true in a world where, historically and to a large extent still today, religion is one of the single most significant cultural forces we have.

This is a fair point, Newaccount. Perhaps a better analogy then would be the theatre. What if we just don't go to the theatre? Just not something we do in our family. We're more into sport and video games. We know people who go, but it doesn't really bother us. Are we raising our darling children to be philistines? Are we telling them that the bard of Avon was a force for evil, and that musicals are a ludicrous contrivance? No, we're just not really bothered. And we'd rather spend our time playing tennis. We're not "passing on our values" regarding theatre to the darling children as Pallisers said. We haven't got any values! They might not grow up as theatre lovers. But who knows, perhaps at some point they'll stumble across it and get the bug.

This would be very different from a stage-struck family who go to see something every week, send their children to drama lessons, and express horror if anyone suggests parts of Macbeth were written by Thomas Middleton!

pallisers · 24/04/2019 00:56

Are we raising our darling children to be philistines? Are we telling them that the bard of Avon was a force for evil, and that musicals are a ludicrous contrivance

well (ignoring the hyperbole about evil and contrivence etc), a lot would depend on what you would say when your child says to you "mummy why don't we go to the theatre like lots of my friends" or "Mummy why can't I do theatre at school" or "mummy, what are they talking about when they talk about plays at assembly"

Religion isn't like the theatre in its place in human evolution and society. There are studies that indicate that a predisposition to belief in god/gods is wired into us. Personally I think of course it is - as soon as we rationally understood death we needed a way to conquer it and make it palatable.

I respect anyone's right to raise their children with no religion at all and to downplay its importance in life. But to pretend it is the same as a belief in galaxy 12345 or going to the theatre on a regular basis seems to be deliberately missing the point in the hope of denigrating organised religion. I can see why you would want to do that but it doesn't make it a valid argument.

I don't believe in god. But I also recognise that my children are growing up in a world of organised religions. And if in England mandatory religion in schools. So of course there is more to atheism than simply saying and doing nothing since it is the default. You are actually passing on a value/belief/ethos/pick the word you want - you don't think there is a god(s) and you think organised religions are based on a myth and you believe this in a world of organised religions and in a country (if you live in England) where one religion is associated with the head of state and there seems to be some religious requirement for all schools. How can you saw then "oh it is a default - like not discussing galaxy x"?

Sashkin · 24/04/2019 05:00

Atheism is the natural default! It does not rely on values or beiefs. It's an absence of values or beliefs surrounding a deity. There's nothing to pass on. It's a neutral state

If we’re being pedantic, philosophically speaking that’s actually agnosticism. Atheism is the active belief in a lack of god, ie Richard Dawkins/the skeptic community. And those people are just as dogmatic as any religious fundamentalist I have met...

BertrandRussell · 24/04/2019 05:55

No. If we’re being pedantic, atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods. Pedantically, it is impossible to be an atheist because you can’t prove a negative. Which is why Dawkins actually calls himself an agnostic. Personally, I call myself an atheist because the chance of there being a god is so vanishingly small it’s not worth bothering about. I’m not an agnostic about gravity or the sun coming up in the east tomorrow, so i’m not an agnostic about god.

bellinisurge · 24/04/2019 06:21

I've reflected on this. FHC is a bit full on religiosity and ok to refuse to attend.

Toddlerteaplease · 24/04/2019 06:38

@MamaDane but if you baptise your twins, they will automatically become Christian. That's the whole point. Wether they choose to practice or up to them!

Toddlerteaplease · 24/04/2019 06:42

And to make promises that you have no intention of keeping and don't believe is massively disrespectful.

EllenRipley · 25/04/2019 18:16

@NewAccount270219
Thanks for pointing out my apparent delusion, but you are incorrect. My comment specifically refers to religion, and not the myriad of other ways and circumstances with which we influence our children.

An absence of belief in a religion/deity is not a belief system in itself. Subjectively, I don't consider it an 'alternative' viewpoint about the universe, it's a natural state of being. Therefore I don't have anything with which to influence or foist upon my child, in this context.

summerof68 · 25/04/2019 21:24

Personally, I call myself an atheist because the chance of there being a god is so vanishingly small it’s not worth bothering about
I wonder what it would take Bertrand for you to believe that there is a higher power? I have the exact opposite view. The chance of us all being here by chance and we weren’t created is zero. I believe in God with certainty. (Forget about my question, I don’t think you ever would)).

JITSOG · 25/04/2019 22:08

EllenRipley

If you feel that religion is foisted on children by their religious parents, can you answer the questions posed by NewAccount270219?

how do you think people of faith should be raising their children? Should I give up going to church until he's old enough to be left at home? Or is it that I shouldn't have had a baby while being religious at all?

BertrandRussell · 26/04/2019 10:09

“I wonder what it would take Bertrand for you to believe that there is a higher power?“

I don’t know. I presume that if a higher power exists and he, she or it wanted me to believe, they would know how to do it?

Incidentally, life evolved to fit the environment available. So when you say we couldn’t have come about by chance-we didn’t. That’s the amazing thing about evolution.

JITSOG · 27/04/2019 07:10

EllenRipley

Too uncomfortable for you to answer?

I’m very interested to hear your solution to the foisting of religion upon children. Especially as you seem to feel do strongly about it.

BertrandRussell · 27/04/2019 07:18

It’s very difficult to raise a child without them being exposed to religion. And I don’t actually think most atheists would want to. That’s why the endless discussions on here about religious education in school being fine but religious practice not.

A more interesting question is how people of faith expose their children to the idea that there may not be a god.

JITSOG · 27/04/2019 08:01

That’s not a response to the questions, you are merely turning it back on itself.

Are you too unable to provide a direct response to the three questions?

BertrandRussell · 27/04/2019 08:16

Children are automatically brought up in the faith/culture of their family. So of course if you go to church your child goes too. But they should also be shown that other people believe in different gods and in none. And should be given the choice not to go to church as soon as it is practically possible.

JITSOG · 27/04/2019 08:57

To be given the basic human right of choice?

Of course that occurs.

BertrandRussell · 27/04/2019 10:54

Good. How do religious families introduce the concept of atheism and make sure their children know it’s a valid option? What resources do they use?

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