To ask what Leavers are still hoping for from Brexit

[Bearbehind]

So we’ve failed twice to actually leave the EU on the dates specified which has hopefully proved that we will never leave without a deal.

Therefore the only option is to leave with a worse deal, or just give the whole thing up as a bad idea.

What do Leavers think can be salvaged from this epic mess?

I should make it clear I hold no strong views for remain or leave at this point, but surely no-one can read this and think the withdrawal agreement is a good idea.

The withdrawl Agreement is one of the only 3 options.

The others are no deal, which we’ve twice proved won’t happen

And revoke.

Which is why I would like to know what Leavers are hoping to resurrect from this mess.

It’s just a ‘transition’ phase (or as the Conservatives insist, somewhat orwellianly on calling it, an ‘implementation’ phase. The magical trade deal comes later.

I think it’s rather hilarious that during the transition phase, the uk is bound by the ECJ and by all current and new directives, without even being allowed to be in the room while they are being negotiated. That’s your sovereignty talking. Right there.

I have respect for your arguments, LadySutch, although rather less for your reference points (Alice Weidel ffs?) but I think you're dreaming if you believe the leave vote in the UK was driven by economic analysis rather than dog-whistle racism and jingoistic post-imperial nationalism. I also think you massively underestimate the impact of the leaving process on our economy (if the economic picture is your main concern) and way of life, as opposed to the position for a country deciding whether or not to join for the first time.

However, more pertinently, you still haven't addressed the question of what now? You may feel that a no deal crashout is the only one true Brexit, but (a) there's no sense in which all leave voters agree with you (far from it) and (b) as Bearbehind has repeatedly said, no deal is vanishingly unlikely to happen now. The options, realistically, are to revoke and remain; or to have a softer EEA-style Brexit (which equally will be divisive among leavers). Given that the latter is likely to bring with it all the (supposed) downsides of EU membership without a great many of the benefits, what is the point exactly? And why isn't a more obvious - and economically/politically safer - solution to your objections to the EU to remain and reform instead?

And Rees Mogg is happy to suck it up. Who are these people? Where is their pride.

My father’s stated reasons for voting leave:

1. the EU has made us let too many black, brown and Romanian foreigners in

And

2. EU fishing quotas are unfair to UK fleets

As my father is not involved in any aspect of the UK fish supply chain, doesn’t know anyone who is, and doesn’t even live within 50 miles of the sea, I suspect his real reason is 1).

When challenged about the repercussions of Leave for his children and grandchildren he just says “I’m 73, I don’t care”

This is why we’ve been NC since May 2016.

Alternative to Redwood's take:

1. If we sign this Treaty we could get full access to the EU without having to pay a thing for many years to come! Many countries would love to have this kind of access. Yet we can still leave at any time, the moment we get our act together, as long as we abide by the terms of the Good Friday Agreement which of course we would never dream of violating, anyway. Isn't it marvelous, we're finally in control!!

2-3 Yes we would still have obligations in order to maintain frictionless trade with EU, but that's true of every country that gets good access to the EU. Such obligations bring economic security & benefits to our economy.

1. Yes EU citizens will have a mechanism to make sure they have good civil rights in the UK. We are a civilised country & applaud the EU for making sure their citizens are protected. We have achieved mutual assurances for our UK citizens resident in the EU. We are glad to cooperate with the EU to protect each other's citizens.

The Articles of the Withdrawal Agreement clearly describe how to proceed while fulfillling a large number of UK & EU mutual obligations to each other.

Yup he is a Tory politician, but at least the man appears to have a brain and can set things out clearly.

John Redwood is a self-important, self-serving, loathsome troublemaking toad, and anyone who admires him needs their head testing. It was very enjoyable seeing Krishnan Gurumurthy confronting him with his lies on C4News the other evening.

John Redwood? The man who became Welsh Secretary and gave us all this stirring rendition of the Welsh National Anthem at a conference?

Prick.

So leaving aside that no-one apparently likes John Redwood as an individual, is his summary wrong?

Yes