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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what Leavers are still hoping for from Brexit

386 replies

Bearbehind · 13/04/2019 12:02

So we’ve failed twice to actually leave the EU on the dates specified which has hopefully proved that we will never leave without a deal.

Therefore the only option is to leave with a worse deal, or just give the whole thing up as a bad idea.

What do Leavers think can be salvaged from this epic mess?

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5
ScreamingLadySutch · 15/04/2019 07:31

When you look at the economics, Brexit is clearly in the interests of the UK.

It isn't going to be a catastrophe, and it isn't going to be a magic bullet either.

But long term, being out of the Eurozone is better for UK.

Jason118 · 15/04/2019 07:34

@ScreamingLadySutch excellent, where have you looked?

twofingerstoEverything · 15/04/2019 07:34

walkingdead and sunshine
You both sound like Mark Francois when he attempted to make similar accusations about Will Self. Lammy was clearly - and very specifically - talking about the ERG. You can even hear Marr's response, when he says to Lammy 'But these are elected MPs...' Clearly all Leavers are not elected MPs. He was talking about a specific faction of a specific party.
You both need to put your prejudices to one side and listen, critically, to what he said before you embarrass yourselves further, although I've no doubt this falsehood is already doing the rounds of social media because it feeds so well into the Leavers=Victims mentality.

InternetArgument · 15/04/2019 07:37

I’m looking forward to more of the luminous wisdom of David Lammy.

twofingerstoEverything · 15/04/2019 07:37

Screaming
But long term, being out of the Eurozone is better for UK.

We are not in the Eurozone. FFS Hmm

DisgraceToTheYChromosome · 15/04/2019 07:48

For me, it's all about the racists. Leave or Remain, we're about to have a serious domestic terrorism problem. Probably something like Finsbury Park, but on a weekly basis. If we leave, they will be emboldened, and given that the ERG will supply the next PM, they'll have a nod and a wink from the top. If we remain, there will be a public sense that they lost the argument. That'll suppress a lot of them, and the rest can be treated as common criminals.

ScreamingLadySutch · 15/04/2019 08:07

Here is why?

  1. Europe is political construct. It was a great vision, and it did a lot of good, especially pulling the eastern European countries in and preparing them for the open market. But it has served its purpose now. The only way for Europe to work is to keep intensifying The Project and imposing harmonisation, which is where the problems of sovereignty come in.
  1. Because it is a political construct, this has distorted the market. This is THE most important economic consideration we need to look at.

a) harmonisation and regulation impose large costs on European goods and reduce competitiveness. Because the EU is a political construct, the instinct is to regulate. The EU is ridiculously over regulated. MORE COSTS and INCREASED UNCOMPETETIVENESS.
b) EU tariffs are ridiculous, and designed to protect the industries of countries like France. They lock out markets like Africa, for instance, who are only allowed to sell raw materials to Europe but not value added finished goods (cocoa - chocolate/coffee, for example). More costs.

  1. The Euro is a huge problem. Another political decision that has completely distorted the market. It is artificially devalued for Germany and Holland, whose economies boomed and both have build up huge trade surpluses which they cannot get rid of, because of the 'one size fits all' Euro. If they still had the D-mark and the Guilder, these currencies would get stronger (more expensive) and the trade would balance out.
Conversely, the Euro has gutted the economies of Greece and Italy and they cannot DEVALUE their currencies to balance out.

The Euro is a hugely deflationary influence on the economies of the Eurozone, making it the slowest growing economy in the world. The Project has been a deflationary force for the last 20 years. By so many measures it has underperformed the other economies, and we are not even talking about China, but USA, Canada etc. Why be tied to it?

  1. The customs union. This is NOT a free market. It is an agreement that we can buy and sell to other members of the Eurozone - but not with the rest of the world - which gets tariffs that the UK really does not have to have, IF Brexit happened.
  1. Labour costs. Spain and France have very high youth unemployment, because of the costs of labour. They are only employed as 'temps' but not given permanent positions, because of the costs.
  1. Finally, the intransigence of the European elite, who seem incapable of reforming. This is understandable, because they have a project of ever closer union to carry out, and it is MARKETS that adapt and change. But a political construct deforms the market and the deflationary mechanism of the EU are actually making Europeans poorer (even the Germans). Can you see now, why there is a rise in populist parties? There is a democratic deficit between the people across Europe and the political elite, which we are watching being played out in our own parliament right now.

Why are people so emotionally tied to this cumbersome, uncompetitive, protectionist racket? Why are people so frightened?

Now, when we look at England, thank God for No! No! No! Margaret Thatcher. That woman had balls.
The British economy whatever Project Fear says, is outperforming Europe. Lowest unemployment, highest Foreign Direct Investment, the investment on tech (AI, robotics) is higher than Germany, France and Holland put together - BECAUSE the bureaucrats will regulate the 4th Industrial Revolution - to protect jobs.

Why? BECAUSE Britain is not in the Euro, and has its own monetary and fiscal policies.

Honestly, people, the evidence is staring you in the face. This is NOT about immigration (the population of Europe is falling so immigration is needed), it is NOT about nationalism, it is NOT about jingoism or little Englander or any other of the accusations.

We need to look at the booming markets of Asia who are not encumbered by bureaucratic political contraints, not get left behind, and get out there.

Europe is going to break apart. Italy is one economic shock away from default, they are also going to leave, even the Germans are getting restless.

Regarding point 5: as Douglas Murray said, when people do things that you don't like, consider that they might be telling you something. UKIP was the largest party in the EU, and they STILL ignored the signals! Understandable, but people then cannot be surprised that Brexit happened. The AfD surged in Germany. It is well worth listening to the speech that Dr Alice Weidel (an economist) gave in the Bundestag scolding Germany and the EU for treating Britain so badly, outlining the protectionism and warning of the economic danger to Germany.

Brexit actually makes sense economically; and shouting and screaming and refusing to listen to the economic signals out there, is both a mistake and hampers future economic growth.

Peregrina · 15/04/2019 08:35

It’s nothing new matt, it’s always been aspirational, woolly stuff from Leavers.
And apparently left to Remainers* to come up with the goods, so that then Leavers can stamp their feet and whine, no, this isn't the Brexit we want. You had your chance almost three years ago to get a Brexit PM - you then had a leading Brexiter supposedly negotiating, although he did virtually nothing. Forgive me for finding Leavers complaints about the lack of Brexit annoying. You should have been brimming with ideas, and getting your sleeves rolled up to bring your vision about.

  • I don't class Theresa May as a Remainer - more of a swotty student who has been given Brexit as a homework task.
ScreamingLadySutch · 15/04/2019 08:45

PS China is busy colonising Africa.

The African population is projected to grow by 2 billion people and East and West Africa are reforming their economies into more free markets. This is a huge potential market we should be getting into, but we can't, because, tariffs.

BeerandBiscuits · 15/04/2019 08:50

Why are people so emotionally tied to this cumbersome, uncompetitive, protectionist racket? Why are people so frightened?

I think some remainers are scared of change, ie better the devil you know.
Great post Screaming Smile.

twofingerstoEverything · 15/04/2019 08:50

ScreamingLady

Brexit actually makes sense economically; and shouting and screaming and refusing to listen to the economic signals out there, is both a mistake and hampers future economic growth

Shouting and screaming, eh?

I just love it when people who aren't UK-based (one of your previous posts said you're based in Africa) pop on here to tell us how marvellous it will all be post-Brexit. Hmm

ScreamingLadySutch · 15/04/2019 08:53

An interesting piece of free speech thought control:

I posted an AIBU 'To be surprised by the economic ignorance of Remainers?"

It got instantly deleted, because R is a bad word! But Leaver is fine (see title).

Does this distortion strike anyone that our society is becoming unpleasantly weird?

You had your chance almost three years ago to get a Brexit PM - you then had a leading Brexiter supposedly negotiating, although he did virtually nothing. - wasn't he undermined?

The Greek finance minster described trying to negotiate with the EU as 'singing the Swedish Anthem'. You arrive absolutely prepared and make your case .... they look at you and then answer, dealing with NOTHING of your points, as though you have just sung the Swedish anthem.

Again, this refusal to reform is what will break up the EU.

ScreamingLadySutch · 15/04/2019 08:58

Based in Africa because of my job does not stop me from being British, having property in UK, little English kids in UK schools and investments in UK twoFingerstoEverything [rolling eyes emoji]

Care to answer any of my points?

Maybe I should have added sneering to screaming and shouting -

opponents seem incapable of not doing this!

Windowsareforcheaters · 15/04/2019 08:59

You complain about the rise of the right in Europe while facilitating the rise of the right in the U.K..

On this thread people have excused and dismissed the ex leader of the EDL!

The EDL for gods sake, the British facist party. In 2019 on MN posters are blaming people who point out the racist facist is a facist.

"So take a long hard look at the hatred you are fuelling before you blame people for casting a democratic vote" said @Walkingdeadfangirl

I am fuelling hatred by pointing out that Yaxley-Lennon is a facist, not the people who vote for him, not the people who support him but me. Apparently, he is a poor misunderstood baby. This is what The Telegraph says about him. The Telegraph is the broadsheet that supports Brexit.

The reality is that he is an extremist and a thug. He has been a member of the British National Party, a founder of the English Defence League (which he left, he claimed, because he was concerned it had been infiltrated by the far Right) and a founder of the anti-Islam organisation Pegida UK

We need to stand firmly against the rise of the far right, this matters far more than Brexit or the EU this is about the rise of facism and people who are prepared to support it.

Will you vote for and support the far right, the inheritors of the legacy of
Oswald Mosley? It would seem for many on this thread the answer is yes. Now that is really scary.

Bearbehind · 15/04/2019 08:59

screaming your list is all very well, if that’s what you believe, but it doesn’t deal with the ‘how’ we leave given the circumstances.

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Peregrina · 15/04/2019 09:03

- wasn't he undermined?

If he'd been any good, he wouldn't have been able to be undermined.
Nice try for an excuse though - it's never the Leavers fault. They won't tell us what they want, so that they can continue to carp and criticise.

ScreamingLadySutch · 15/04/2019 09:10

Peregrina this is part of the democratic deficit point the elite v the people: he was undermined by Olly Robbins a civil servant.

Dominic Raab the next minister was further humiliated by it being announced that Olly Robbins was in charge of negotiations. Here is the moment where he finds out

To ask what Leavers are still hoping for from Brexit
ScreamingLadySutch · 15/04/2019 09:16

Bearbehind - how?

Well, the political elite (retainers in parliament -civil servants - EU bureacrats are all determined that it is not going to happen. Can you not see the 'democratic deficit'.

But lets imagine that British MPs 'did' want to carry out the will of the majority: how do you deal with people who refuse to negotiate?

You walk away. Which means no deal. Britain doesn't seem to see how powerful it is and what impact on Europe leaving would have. It might be that they were required to reform which could be an overall good for the EU. Please watch that German speech, it is very interesting.

Peregrina · 15/04/2019 09:17

Screaming - that makes my point well for me. If he had the same ability as Olly Robbins, then Olly Robbins wouldn't have got a look in!

As for Raab - I knew when I was 8 that Great Britain was an island. For Raab to only now realise how much trade came via Calais and then announce it to the world as though he'd made a great discovery, is appalling. You would think at the least he'd have had the gumption to keep his mouth shut. What's that saying about keeping your mouth shut and be thought a fool, or opening it and having it confirmed that you are a fool?

Bearbehind · 15/04/2019 09:23

You walk away. Which means no deal.

We could have done that, twice, if we were serious. We didn’t because we are not serious about ever leaving with no deal - the grown ups know it is simply too damaging.

Britain doesn't seem to see how powerful it is and what impact on Europe leaving would have

So just more ‘they need us more than we need them’ nonsense still.

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Windowsareforcheaters · 15/04/2019 09:27

Parliament the sovereign body of the U.K. has voted against no deal.

No democratic deficit there.

Also slightly puzzled by the term 'democratic deficit' being used in relation to the civil service.

The only way to overcome that would be to elect civil servants or for each political incumbent to select their own, this is a notoriously poor way to run a country.

Sunshine1239 · 15/04/2019 09:27

Two fingers

I know he was talking about them but do you honestly think that they are in anyway similar if that it’s in any way appropriate? He’s lost his mind

MongerTruffle · 15/04/2019 09:32

I voted leave because I don't think it will benefit this country to be part of a federal Europe.

I don't think you understand what 'federal' means.
Federalism is a system of government where a lot of authority is devolved to self-governing states (as opposed to a unitary government, where the central government is the ultimate authority).

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 15/04/2019 09:35

It got instantly deleted, because R is a bad word

Rubbish

Threads are full of those wrds

And remoaners

Neither is deleted

Have MNHQ told you why they deleted it...usually there is a message

Bearbehind · 15/04/2019 09:38

It got instantly deleted, because R is a bad word

It won’t have been deleted because of the word ‘remainer’

More likely the goady nature of calling 16m people ‘ignorant’ in the title.

It rather sets the tone doesn’t it?

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