Need advice and a handhold. My child called ' simple'.

[wildbhoysmama]

More of a WWYD. I'm really upset right now as my poor little boy is vulnerable and I can't bear for him to be bullied.

I've never, ever had words in my whole life with any neighbour but there's been heated words and I'm not sure what to do.

My DS is 7 and has ADHD and autistic traits ( as well as being severely epileptic, so he copes with a lot) but is a fun, funny, kind and positive little guy. He is emotionally and socially around age 5, but in mainstream and we've been told he's very sharp and performing excellently at school ( he loves school, it is a very caring environment for him.). Life is not always easy but we're a v close family ( 2 older DS and close wider family) and me and DH work hard to make sure he's understood and we have a v happy home life.

We live in a lovely neighbourhood with a mix of families and older people, most of whom have been here many years and whilst noone lives in each other's pockets we're all supportive and everyone is pleasant. All the kids play out, including our DS and he has some lovely, wee friends. Unfortunately one child is problematic: they moved in about 3 years ago ( their house backs onto ours) and whilst I don't know them we pass the time of day. Their DD is 10 and just horrible to our DS. She belittles him, manipulates him and, I think, uses him to make herself look good in front of others. She constantly calls in for him and despite being told politely he's not available she continues to call for him sometimes 2/3 times a day (it maybe to do with our trampoline/ climbing wall etc).

We had a horrendous summer last year trying to get DS to understand that they shouldn't speak as they just don't get on. He was the butt of her jokes and she manipulated the others to run away from him etc. It ended up she threw stones at him and smashed our car window the parents were apologetic and paid for the repair.

The last, few weeks with the weather being better she has started calling again. We say not to call again but she keeps doing so. Tonight things came to a head. Pur DS was on his swing and she was whispering insults to him through our high hedge. Our NDN heard it all as she called him 'simple'. Our DS then asked my DH what it meant.

I went round to her door (.never had to before) to Express my upset. Her mother said ' I'll have a word' but very casually as if it was no big deal. When I said it was quite a big deal she got very angry, saying that we had to keep our son away from her DD too. I pointed out that he is not the issue and with his ASN her dd needs to know that he's vulnerable. She exploded- walking up to my face and asking me to leave her garden.
I said it was very ' adult ' and left.

Her dd was adopted 4 years ago and I don't know whether this makes her mother very over-protective, but she must know how awful her dds behaviour is. Both my NDNs call the dd 'vile'- not nice for a child but I hate to say I agree.

I don't know what to do? I can't keep him from playing out. What do I do if this victimisation continues? Do I have grounds to have a chat with social services or is that just way OTT.

Sorry it's long, thanks for listening in advance.

How so?

Op, I’m not going to go into the complexities of this situation. There have been a lot of discussions / opinions for you to digest already.

I just wanted to give my point of view about the other mother being calm. I’d be the same I think. My mum always taught us that if someone accuses our child of something we do nothing until we’ve looked into it and spoken to them for ourselves so if you came to me with something my daughter had done I’d say something like leave it with me and I’d find out what went on for myself and then I’d be back in touch with you after. I a million percent wouldn’t let it go though. I wouldn’t protect bad behaviour. Once the bad behaviour had been confirmed you’d see my outrage and consequences.

It feels like your son is losing his freedom now and you have extra to worry about when he’s playing with his friends which is shit 💐

A lot of adopted children have neurodevelopmental difficulties themselves, sometimes originating from the care they received as infants. It may be that this mother is struggling with her DD's behaviour in more ways than this and tonight tipped her over the edge.

This was exactly my first thought too. Given that the parents have apologised in the past I imagine they do know what she's like and are trying in the best way they can to deal with it. Perhaps they are all out of ideas and have become irritable and overly defensive.

Perhaps in your (perfectly understandable) need to protect your child you didn't consider that she is highly likely to have social and emotional difficulties of her own.

Does the mother know that you know she was adopted aged 6? If so then I think I'd try this:

Send the mother a card with a message in it, along the lines of 'I am sorry we had to fall out over the children the other day - I have reflected on it and realise that you might be struggling in your own way with your DD, given her background and that they both have needs that should be taken into consideration.

Perhaps we could get together over coffee and have a calm chat about the challenges we both face and a way forward to resolve them? I don't want either child to be unhappy or to feel attacked so we need to find a way forward where we agree to respect one another's POV and take into account the needs of each child. I would very much welcome the opportunity to do this, with the very best of intentions. Here is my mobile number.

If you don't think the mother is the type to engage like a grown up over this, or you try it and she sends back a big 'Fuck off' then all you can do is build a thicker fence (maybe double layered, put a new one in front of your old one) with no gaps and stop answering your front door to her. Maybe get one of those camera systems to you can see who is there when the bell rings. Could you put up a front gate and keep it locked once the postman has been? Anyone you are expecting can ring you to say they are there.

Adopted kids can have issues . My bully at school was in foster care . My sons ‘frenemy’ is a fine boy but very very insecure and can be tricky

If I were you I would send a card and acknowledge how badly the last chat went and advise an intent to adresss issues a bit better should they arise again

Her child has their own battles to fight just as your son does . I also think whilst he has NO right to be her friend encouraging him
To understand why she is the way she is and showing compassion could be a useful life lesson for him too ?

Mine too stop

OP, I have every sympathy with you and your ds and until your final paragraph I'd have said the girl was badly behaved because she's badly parented. But I totally agree with this:

A lot of adopted children have neurodevelopmental difficulties themselves, sometimes originating from the care they received as infants. It may be that this mother is struggling with her DD's behaviour in more ways than this and tonight tipped her over the edge.

My nephews are adopted, for a similar amount of time as the little girl, and dsis has had to fight for every bit of support she can muster for them. Her marriage is on the verge of breakdown because of the issues they face.

Totally understand that your priority is to your ds, so I say this purely as a way to encourage a bit of understanding. That little girl is more likely than not to have come from a neglectful and/ or abusive early life - a life that will have left a long term impact on her. And the impact in her parents is likewise likely to be significant.

How would you feel about letting the dust settle and approaching her again to calmly discuss the positive actions you can both take, from a position of better understanding?

I'd just keep your child away from her as much as possible. Turn her away from the door and tell her to go away if you spot her by the hedge. She is clearly suffering from her own issues too but it's not your responsibility to resolve this. I also agree the victim blaming is grim, her troubled upbringing isn't your child's burden and he shouldn't have to "be kind" to the person bullying him.

To be honest if I was her mum I'd be more worried about her going out and making trouble with the wrong person, someone who could retaliate and she probably isn't ready to be allowed out unsupervised but I don't see what you can do about that.

I'd approach this with a two pronged attack.

I'd encourage him to brush off remarks and explain that whilst it isn't acceptable, there is a reason for it. I'd talk about her bad start in childhood etc and how he should deal with it, perhaps by not showing a reaction to her as that's what bullies want so she gets fed up, or by saying"sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" or perhaps nonchalantly asking her whether she's having a bad day today but showing no outward sign of being upset.

Whilst helping him deal with it, I'd also start working on her. He's going to have to be more closely supervised to begin with so I'd start by mildly pulling her up on things and explaining that if she's behaving in a different way she'll get a different reaction. I'd say that ds won't want her to play on the trampoline if she's nasty to him but that if she's nice to him he's more likely to want to play with her. I'd perhaps say that she can come and play tomorrow if she is nice to ds for the rest of the day etc. Then/or I'd let her be involved with something with a pre warning that it will stop if she says anything mean. The trampoline could be a huge incentive/reward for good behavior and being nice to your son.
Whilst it shouldn't be your job to educate her, it's in your interests to do so, before the bad behavior and bullying gets worse. Obviously this means more supervision and involvement from you but you are going to have to do this to safeguard him anyway. Hopefully it will be a short term intervention as the alternative could be that she manipulates the others into making it awkward for him to continue playing out. It's worth a shot anyway.

Good luck.

From what you say about the girl’s mother she is probably aware of the problematic behaviour and feels bad about it. When she was silent she wasn’t necessarily dismissing you, probably it was a lot for her to take in and most parents would need a bit of time to discuss the issue with the other parent and the child and then think of consequences, punishment and solutions. I would imagine that when you pressed her she panicked and behaved in a way she might regret.

May I suggest something different from everyone else? Send her a text asking if there is a convenient time for you to meet without the DCs around. If possible have all parents of both DCs there. Have a cup of tea, eat some cake, then discuss ways you can help both children together. The solution might be to separate them completely, or to supervise them all the time or something else, but I think that if there is a chance that these girl’s parents are motivated to help her learn how to behave it would be a good opportunity to work together. You’d be helping a little girl and protecting your DS at the same time.

Kindly, you're being ott. But I understand. The language you use about two children with additional needs says a lot. Your son is funny, kind, socially immature for his age. Her daughter is horrible, manipulative, vile. How would you react if your son was described like that?

If neighbours are saying that about this girl behind her parents back, what might they say about your son out of your earshot?

You said yourself that your child can get physical but you've justified that as being ok with 'he'll be the first to push back if someone is physical with him'. So are neighbouring children actually fed up with your son's immaturity?

Apologies, posted too soon.

The parents likely know what their daughter is like from others as they will hear a lot about it.

Give each other some space. Supervise your child when they are playing out front - adult supervision, not the other children. It's an unfair responsibility for them to manage.

Both children play in their own gardens because it is a safe, enclosed space so you may have to rethink the layout of garden toys etc to minimise interaction.

Hold firm to your boundary of not letting them play together when she calls for your son. And if it gets too much, call on the other family and ask for their support rather than levelling accusations. "Can you please reinforce to your dd not to call for my son as they can't play nicely together". Your not blaming your son, but you're acknowledging the situation isn't healthy for them.

And I say this as the parent two additional needs children, one of who at nearly 9 cannot be allowed to play out with his peers without a degree of adult supervision. It's amazing how much weeding my front garden needs!

We have a large, high hedge but she taunts him through it

Can you add a good 6ft solid fence on your land to stop this? It may not look as pretty but she'd not be able to see him and it's much harder to taunt an invisible target

This girl sounds like she may be the victim of some kind of emotional or other abuse and is using your ds to feel powerful. Very worrying.

I think you need to keep him away from her. He's only 7 so not as though he's a free-roaming teenager yet. I think you need to supervise when he's playing out and make it very clear to this girl that you won't hesitate to intervene if she ever oversteps the mark again. Bullies prey on the vulnerable and your ds will be a lot less vulnrable with you nearby keeping a watchful eye on proceedings. Once she gets the message that she won't get away with it, she'll probably move on to an easier target sadly. Not much you can do about that.

I really wish people would stop minimising this type of bullying. It's clearly sustained and highly abusive. If the ages were ten years older, you'd all be saying call the police etc. A young,vulnerable child is being abused by an older child - who does and should know better. OP, quote rightfully wa ta to protect her DS. A report to police or social services could lead to a timely intervention which prevents this escalating.

You think a girl should be reported to the police for calling a boy 'simple'?

And no, if the ages were ten years older nobody would say to call the police. Would you seriously advise an adult to call the police because someone called him simple?

I can see why you’re upset - but I’m not sure what you expected the other mother to do on the spot?

In your shoes, I’d just try to keep my son away from this girl. Next time she knocks for him say to her, politely but coldly, that he isn’t - and won’t be - available to play with her as she has called him nasty names and that you’d prefer her not to call for him again. When they’re out in a group, make sure there’s an adult to supervise.

My heart goes out to both you and your neighbour. My two youngest DC's (twins) had SEN and epilepsy, I had to suffer a lot of judgy behaviour from other adults, and feel helpless knowing they were suffering subtle bullying from other DC's.
However one of my grandchildren is an adopted child (at age 6) and you have no idea of the complex emotional needs, the unbelievable bad behaviour that the parents have to deal with. I have seen two perfectly loving, capable, intelligent, hard working adults bought physically and emotionally to their knees by this child.
I would imagine that your neighbours daughter feels that your son is someone who is also vulnerable, like herself, but she can exert herself over him to feel almost dominant, something she is unable to do with her parents and other children who were born into stable homes.
Its all very complex and she probably almost needs this "dominance" to feel good about herself!
Your child has an advantage here, he has experienced a loving stable home in his early years surrounded by love and care. Despite his difficulties he is confident he is loved and supported. Your neighbours child has no such confidence.

As a PP said I would urge you to drop a note to your neighbour and try and have a calm discussion with her. Remember this woman is all too aware of her daughters behaviour, you are just another parent in probably a long line of parents that have complained about her. Her will have no real friends at school, her Mother is probably shunned by other school Mums. Believe me she will have been chastised for her bad behaviour within the guidelines that her parents have been given.
Have a bit of empathy here, both of you have have your own and complex parenting problems.

The victim blaming in this thread is unbelievable! The DS was playing in his own back garden, on his own swing and is being insulted in a sly way. He should be able to play in his own garden without being taunted.
OP I think you could look out for her being in the garden and listen out for this, if it happens again I shout back loudly ‘stop saying these unkind things through the hedge to DS again’, and if she calls for him tell her ‘he doesn’t want to play out with you as you say unkind things to him’. It’s factual and drawing her attention to the fact you know what she’s doing.

I think you are doing the right thing to disengage. You have enough on your plate and whatever needs this girl has, it's unlikely a bit of outside coaching will be enough to address them.

Say "no" when asked at the door and screen off the hedge. If she still insists on speaking through it, add music.

I had stones thrown at me when bullied as a child. It was terrifying. If she smashed a car window, she is capable of severely injuring DS. Keep them apart.

Bibijayne

I really wish people would stop minimising this type of bullying. It's clearly sustained and highly abusive. If the ages were ten years older, you'd all be saying call the police etc. A young,vulnerable child is being abused by an older child - who does and should know better. OP, quote rightfully wa ta to protect her DS. A report to police or social services could lead to a timely intervention which prevents this escalating.

if it were ten years later posters would be blaming the school.

Whilst it shouldn't be your job to educate her, it's in your interests to do so

No it’s isnt, you thought pattern is to the detriment of OPs son.

If he’s upset she’s called him names and questioning OPs teachings in kindness etc - and children with ADHD can be relentless in questions, can you imagine if this continues?

It’s not OPs job to fix this child, her job is to protect her son.

They aren suited to each other an need to stay away

Get some loud wind chimes to hide her comments

I think OP has had some very helpful and sensitive posts from PPs. I wonder how well the girl's mother is being supported- her reaction is concerning and for that reason I would I think an approach to discuss with SS is warranted. Neighbour may need extra support but this may not be on SS radar, I wonder if this could be heading toward adoption breakdown? the girls behaviour is getting worse, maybe neighbours strategies aren't working as they need? This could be described as a hate crime by some . Ii is sad for both children, but your little boy deserves to go about his life without this from a 10 year old child.

@Lagunabubbles
Fully agree with you, why are posters excusing the girls behaviour because she's adopted? At what point is it seen as she's a bully who is victimising this little boy? We could all behave badly and find something in our past to blame it on.
The comments saying call SS or Police, absolutely ridiculous; no wonder our public services are on their knees when people are calling them with every minute thing in their life.

I don think you have done anything in the slightest wrong OP. You were also calm with your neighbour. It will be interesting to see over the next few days whether your neighbour will write a note or send a text apologising to you and your DC and arrange to meet to discuss further.

Good morning. I've not had a great sleep with it all in my head but out and about already to make sure DS has a good day out.

To clarify, he was nowhere near the heated situation and had no idea that there was an issue. We have spoken to him again and, as always, have emphasised that others can find it hard to be kind so it's best not to play with them. We have always spoken about inappropriate behaviour and when he says she's nasty we correct it to 'her behaviour was nasty ': we've never had naughty/ bad children ever in our house just naughty or inappropriate or unkind behaviour. To those PPs trying to teach us how to raise our children we're more than capable, thank you.

In reply to PP who said I was as bad as the child for name calling, I said both my NDN have an opinion of her, not me. I said I'm beginning to agree, but I have always recognised her behaviour is vile not her. And for the PP who tried to cast assertions on my professional capacity, you don't know me, my professional persona or my son so keep away with your judgement and vilification. I am VERY aware of what the child may have gone through and the effects but I not going to let my son be victimised. He is my priority. To address the point that I said he looks NT: he does, he has no outward, obvious signs of his disabilities, what is wrong with stating that? He is not NT but people presume he is which can lead to people judging him/ our parenting.

I will address things with a new fence and more supervision when he is out but the suggestion that my child is the problem is ridiculous. The neighbours or their children are not troubled by his immaturity or his physical behaviour (like any other child he will defend himself if physically hit or pushed but this rarely happens as the rest and him all play well). He is a great kid and I don't want him bullied. I have told him not to cycle past her door and we're changing his route, he has asked 3 times now whether it's his fault, he's a thoughtful child. We have just reiterated that they don't play well together and it's for the best.

I will not have people on here point the finger at my ds, who has done nothing except be vulnerable, or me who calmly spoke to the parent and did not become aggressive.

I'll sign off now. Thank you to those who have been supportive.