Need advice and a handhold. My child called ' simple'.

[wildbhoysmama]

More of a WWYD. I'm really upset right now as my poor little boy is vulnerable and I can't bear for him to be bullied.

I've never, ever had words in my whole life with any neighbour but there's been heated words and I'm not sure what to do.

My DS is 7 and has ADHD and autistic traits ( as well as being severely epileptic, so he copes with a lot) but is a fun, funny, kind and positive little guy. He is emotionally and socially around age 5, but in mainstream and we've been told he's very sharp and performing excellently at school ( he loves school, it is a very caring environment for him.). Life is not always easy but we're a v close family ( 2 older DS and close wider family) and me and DH work hard to make sure he's understood and we have a v happy home life.

We live in a lovely neighbourhood with a mix of families and older people, most of whom have been here many years and whilst noone lives in each other's pockets we're all supportive and everyone is pleasant. All the kids play out, including our DS and he has some lovely, wee friends. Unfortunately one child is problematic: they moved in about 3 years ago ( their house backs onto ours) and whilst I don't know them we pass the time of day. Their DD is 10 and just horrible to our DS. She belittles him, manipulates him and, I think, uses him to make herself look good in front of others. She constantly calls in for him and despite being told politely he's not available she continues to call for him sometimes 2/3 times a day (it maybe to do with our trampoline/ climbing wall etc).

We had a horrendous summer last year trying to get DS to understand that they shouldn't speak as they just don't get on. He was the butt of her jokes and she manipulated the others to run away from him etc. It ended up she threw stones at him and smashed our car window the parents were apologetic and paid for the repair.

The last, few weeks with the weather being better she has started calling again. We say not to call again but she keeps doing so. Tonight things came to a head. Pur DS was on his swing and she was whispering insults to him through our high hedge. Our NDN heard it all as she called him 'simple'. Our DS then asked my DH what it meant.

I went round to her door (.never had to before) to Express my upset. Her mother said ' I'll have a word' but very casually as if it was no big deal. When I said it was quite a big deal she got very angry, saying that we had to keep our son away from her DD too. I pointed out that he is not the issue and with his ASN her dd needs to know that he's vulnerable. She exploded- walking up to my face and asking me to leave her garden.
I said it was very ' adult ' and left.

Her dd was adopted 4 years ago and I don't know whether this makes her mother very over-protective, but she must know how awful her dds behaviour is. Both my NDNs call the dd 'vile'- not nice for a child but I hate to say I agree.

I don't know what to do? I can't keep him from playing out. What do I do if this victimisation continues? Do I have grounds to have a chat with social services or is that just way OTT.

Sorry it's long, thanks for listening in advance.

Yes, of course the disabled victim of sustained bullying should just ignore name calling because the poor bully may be having a difficult time!? Unbelievable!!

Yep, sadly you see this time and time again, always excuses because the poor wee bully has had a hard life. People tripping over themselves to feel sorry for them. Blah blah blah. In the meantime other children, such as my son want to kill the senses at age 11 because if these other "poor souls" but get fuck all understanding and sympathy because the bully has had a " hard life" and have various disorders because of it. Victim blaming at its best again on MN.

Sounds like you touched a nerve there, her reaction also makes me wonder whether her DD is relaying a word heard from her parents, and the reaction was part-guilt. Definitely keep them apart as much as you can. It's hard though, and as pp have said, there will be other times when this may happen - not just this situation and your DS but to any child and nasty name calling - children can be very cruel because they're emotionally immature. I agree with pp that the best course of action is distance and teaching your DS that these are only words.

Although your son has challenges, he's obviously had a safe and loving home to grow up in. The poor girl who didn't have stability until recently.
I would be inclined to explain why she is so nasty. Perhaps some kindness to her is in order as well

I would never encourage the boy who has called my son the names he's had and damaged his self esteem so much we now have a CAMHS appointment to be "kind" to his bully. Poor girl? What t about OPs poor son being called horrible names. Oh that doesnt count eh because he's had a good support.

You have acknowledged you know about attachment disorder.

The thing is, the fact that tonight hit a nerve for you makes no difference at all to her attachment disorder, which will most likely have been as severe today as it was yesterday.

It must have been very hurtful indeed to have had that said about your DS. Of course you have to look out for him. But you did that by going around to the mum’s house. You should have left it when she said she would have a word.

Both children are vulnerable. Both mothers are protective. The 10 year old is very likely functioning emotionally behind her chronological age too. You are a teacher, so obviously educated. And hopefully attuned to children. I do understand why you were upset, but knowing of the girls’s circumstances you really should have tempered your reaction.

Yes, "simple" is a word that has so many good meanings. In Mexico it means that someone has no side to them, for example.

SS will have absolutely no interest in this unless you think this girl is mean because she is abused or neglected.

I think you’re doing the right thing and just have to keep asserting your boundaries with both this girl and her parents.

Hello OP, I’m posting on here as the parent of two adopted girls, one of whom is a preteen. It’s been really interesting to read some of the responses here (not that I’m minimizing your predicament to a scientific experiment) as it gives me a better world view about how my children are regarded in the wider world (and, by the way, here’s a universal fuck you to everyone here who has posted that they would never let their children play with a child who is care experienced because they are ‘damaged’).

My preteen adoptive daughter, who is losing her sight through a degenerative condition, and whose eyes wobble visibly and uncontrollably, has been horribly bullied in the past by a child with a rare disorder which causes significant facial disfigurements, among other learning issues, and it really saddened me that even the most vulnerable children need to feel better about themselves by picking at the perceived weaknesses of others. I guess it’s just human nature.

I’m so sorry for you that your vulnerable child is being treated so nastily by a child, who just happens to be adopted. Not that I’m excusing any behaviours, but it’s worth repeating what previous posters have said about the lifelong impact of a poor early start in life, and how children who’ve been removed from their birth families for abuse and neglect can often play out in their future lives the types of behaviours and treatment they’ve experienced in their first home.

Adopted children can often need to be taught essential life skills like empathy, because they’ve never had them modelled in the all-important and formative early years. Your neighbour’s daughter sounds like a very traumatised little girl and living with trauma 24/7 can bring even the most resilient adoptive parent to their knees, as I’m sure you’ll recognize as the parent of a child with disabilities.

Your neighbour is likely to be defensive because, as adoptive parents, we have to scrap for every meagre bit of support for our children all the while knowing that other people regard our children as “damaged goods” (see previous posts upthread) be avoided at all costs, especially when it comes to being allowed to socialise with other children.

Laguna I meant the OP could be kind.
The neighbour is a child. One that has possibly had a terrible start to life.
Doesn't mean that the children should play together, or that the behaviour should be accepted.
The op is a teacher, and should have insight into troubled children. Kindness.

its up to her parents to maintain her standard of behaviour adopted with issues or not. Be firm and tell her she is no longer allowed to come over and if you see her over the hedge go out and firmly tell her off. If her parents don't like it (because they won't tackle her themselves) then they need to step up and do more. Your ds does not need to be bullied because she is vulnerable. Which btw we are only assuming. It could well be they are treating her different because they think she has suffered in some way being adopted.

Thanks OP.

Being a looked after child is an "additional need" in itself I think. SEN or additional needs never mean the child can just go around hurting others and they just have to put up with it. However it can mean parenting methods are different, make take longer, and may look ineffectual to outsiders.

Yep, sadly you see this time and time again, always excuses because the poor wee bully has had a hard life. People tripping over themselves to feel sorry for them. Blah blah blah. In the meantime other children, such as my son want to kill the senses at age 11 because if these other "poor souls" but get fuck all understanding and sympathy because the bully has had a " hard life" and have various disorders because of it. Victim blaming at its best again on MN.

Completely agree with this, the child is in his garden and has been repeatedly bullied for his disability. I can’t belice how many people are making excuses for her.

The reasons for her behaviour are her parents concern, whilst you can be sympathic you have no reason not to take this very seriously and your agenda has to be the protection of your child.

. However it can mean parenting methods are different, make take longer, and may look ineffectual to outsider

the other mum needs to supervise her child rather than the op having to sit and supervise her child i his own back garden.

its not up to the op's son to put up with this or be kind. he has his own battles to deal with and is the victim of a bully.
I have been there, the child who targeted our family ( and called my disabled child names) nearly wrecked our lives. but at least the police took is seriously and dealt with it.

Op your son does not have to be kind to his bully. please don't teach him that.

Look after your DS. Sounds like you are, already, but don't feel a shred of guilt about protecting him in whichever way you can.
Consider moving the swing away from the hedge (if you can).
Say "No" firmly and close the door when the girl calls. Simple as that. No conversation. Just a very clear "No".
Tell her mum she is not to let her DD call for your DS again (if she does turn up). Be very firm about it.
There would be no way on earth I would entertain any contact as far as I could make it not happen, between this girl and your DS.
to you.

I really cannot understand many of the replies here, defending this girl bully and the aggressive mother. It is victim blaming. I am astounded. YADNU OP. Your poor lad.

The girl may have her own difficulties, but if she is acting out in this way she obviously needs more parental input and supervision and/or professional help than she is getting. For her own sake as well as others, this behaviour needs to be addressed and stopped. It is compassionate to help her stop bullying. Firm boundaries, limits, consistent consequences etc are vital and reassuring for children with attachment issues, as is actively fostering empathy. Merely removing her target is not the answer.

And it goes without saying that your son deserves protection and his (relative) freedom. You are not over reacting. He needs to be safe and protected as much as any child.

The mum should have been nothing but apologetic. But with a reaction like that it is no wonder that the behaviour continues. Its not a healthy response to a neighbour even if you are stressed. Crying, apologising, being exasperated but aggressiveness? If we are going to armchair diagnose, you have to wonder if actually this is where the girl's behaviour comes from, not from being adopted at all.

OP keeping them apart and supervising him is obviously going to help, but if she is bullying him in his own garden then that is her parents' job to control. Likewise the playing out... You shouldn't have to watch him so closely all the time because of this one girl. The responsibility should be on her parents.

I agree that it is hard to know where to go with this for help. The way I see it though is that every time you expect the girl to be held to account for her behaviour and the parents asked to do more to stop it, you are actually doing her a favour too. What kind of life she will have if she is allowed to go on bullying? What kind of damage will she inflict on others?

Hopefully she will keep away and her behaviour will improve. But ultimately, if it doesn't stop and the parents don't act, then I think you have to approach social services or a community police officer. Likely they are too over stretched, but surely they ought to be the people to turn to prevent antisocial behaviour when the parents can't or won't. In a sane and well resourced world that would be a helpful measure for both children.

I don't think I escalated it, I just wanted to point out how serious I felt it was. I'm sick of other people's 'needs' over-riding my son's , I feel that sometimes I'm too sensitive to others and they are not to me and mine.

Anyway, disengage is my new mantra and ds has been told, and will constantly be reminded that, not to speak to her and if she speaks to him to get an adult ( me/ OH/ NDN).

could you ever ask the girl why she would say something like that to someone.
I understand shes known some perhaps terrible times.but maybe if she has only heard people or cruel behaviour given out by others this is just her doing the same.and that is where adoptive parents have to work really hard to question the repsonses,speach and actions so they can talk though and re-align what is ok or not or what words harm etc.

Nobody is saying that the OP's DS should be kind to his bully! They're saying that the OP should recognise that this girl is probably behaving like this because of her early trauma and the likely brain damage resulting from it. And asking OP to try and be kind to the mum and recognise that much as she would love to be able to stop her daughter misbehaving, if she does have attachment disorder, she likely has whole sections of her brain which are massively underdeveloped and this isn't a case where you can just tell the child to stop doing it and take away their iPad.
OP could you maybe talk to your DS's other two friends? Ask them to keep an eye out for your DS and put up a combined front when he's playing out? That might help shift the power dynamic a bit and mean she can't isolate him in the same way. Give them some lines to say like "That's bullying." Or "He's littler than you, don't be a bully." Get your other kids to help if you think they wouldn't mind. This seems to be about raising her own social position, so if she can see that that doesn't work, it might discourage it.
I would try and mend the situation with your ndn too (well, I probably wouldn't, because I hate confrontation, but I'd recognise that I SHOULD try and mend the situation). Ask them for help on how best to explain to her that she can't keep calling for your DS.
I completely understand why you're so upset - it must be a horrible situation. But I agree with PP that your DS sounds really lucky to have such a lovely, supportive family. Life is probably going to continue to be very hard for this little girl, and she's almost certainly acting like this because of her early life experience. I think it's great that she's able to play out with the other kids, and I really hope you can find a way to diffuse this situation so that can continue without your DS being bullied.

I don't think you escalated it either OP. You simply wanted the seriousness acknowledged. Entirely reasonable. She was not. Being empathetic should not mean becoming a punching bag. Hold firm and good luck.

The op is a teacher, and should have insight into troubled children. Kindness

The OPs first concern is to her own child. I would rather pretend my childs bully didnt exist. What message will I send out to my own son if he sees me "being kind" to the boy that has made him suicidal at 11? You lot of victim blamers oh let's feel sorry for the poor wee bully crowd that always pops up on these threads absolutely disgust me. No wonder children's suicide rates are rising.

'Simple' is a very unusual word for a child these days to come out with. It's dated and seldom used by children. They'd be more likely to say thick, stupid, weird etc ... not that these words should ever be used, and definitely not with your son!

Hate to say it, but it sounds to me like they've picked it up from an adult.

Just catching up with responses. Thank you all.

A very insightful post, moomin thank you for that, especially the point that parenting needs to be different/ built up, I suppose I hadn't thought of that. We have always emphasised kindness to all of our boys and perhaps I've just felt that this girl is so lacking in this that I didn't know how to deal with her. DS is also confused (he has mentioned many times that he has been kind and why isn't she. He can be quite boisterous so we work on the concept of gentle a lot, he has also been saying he is gentle too and why isn't it working- bless him).

To the PP emphasising kindness, we are all about that and I am, indeed, tuned into children, I teach secondary (in a very deprived area so am very aware of children with all sorts of needs, and we were one of the first in our city to have a nurture facility) and I am generally known for being the one who has kids coming for a cry/ blurt/ chat/ advice. I've also had 2 other boys with all sorts of different friends and a huge family with lots of nieces and nephews. I genuinely enjoy being around children and our house is busy with all the boys and their friends.

I just need to find that fine balance of recognising her issues but keeping my own son's wellbeing as my priority.

plattercake you also make lots of very valid points. I hope she now avoided him but if it escalates again you give me lots to think about.

CheerfulMuddler you said And asking OP to try and be kind to the mum

Do you also expect the girl's mum to come round and apologise for her loss of temper, ask if her son is OK, explain her daughter's issues and say that she will be supervising her daughter more closely and would like to work with the OP to help both kids? I would.

If not, why do you place all the responsibility on the OP (who also has plenty on her plate) and on the little boy and his friends to control and re-train an older girl when you claim she is brain damaged and difficult for her own parents to manage.

Honestly I find some responses on here most bizarre.

Could someone be in the garden with your son and if they hear the girl talking to him through the hedge just say loudly 'Son'sname does not want to speak to you. Go away' or something similar, not offensive, just a clear statement.

Could you move his swing and anything else he likes to play on away from the hedge so she cannot make him hear her unless she shouts.
That way her mother and other neighbours could hear her clearly.

Kid sounds awful, and not all adoptive parents are going to parent effectively!
Of course your son is your priority OP