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AIBU?

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Original poster

AIBU to think that Leave voters who complain about a lack of democracy are hypocrites?

435 replies

KennDodd · 03/04/2019 20:37

Because they completely ignore the proven illegalities around the Leave campaign that would have made void the result had the referendum been binding.

OP posts:
78percentLindt · 04/04/2019 12:08

Yes they are being hypocritical.
As PP said , we have already had 2 referenda about our relationship with Europe, so why object to a confirmatory vote? They didn't mind having the 2016 one. ( I did- but then I voted in 1975)
What annoys me about the Leavers stance is that the original petition , immediately after the Vote was set up by a leaver as he thought they had lost and prominent Brexiteers said they would continue fighting to Leave. So why are they so angry that Remainders are still arguing?
Yes, the leave campaign has paid its fine and there are questions about their behaviour- but would it be any better if we had another vote.
My biggest fear is that the referendum and the aftermath appears to have set free a whole load of extreme right wing hatred . The amount of hate directed a MPs especially female ones is awful.

CanILeavenowplease · 04/04/2019 12:12

If there were proven illegalities in the leave campaign that void the result of the referendum, why hasn’t it indeed been cancelled?

It was an indicative referendum only - it wasn't legally binding. In other words, there was no obligation of the Government to act on the outcome of the referendum so there is effectively nothing at all to cancel.

mummmy2017 · 04/04/2019 12:39

Did you not read that so many people are peed off with the EU, that May had been advised that just like Cameron it is possible the Leave could come out in force and state for a second time that we want to go, in which case there would be no where to hide.
Also the way the EU are acting is reinforcing their bad guy image to the very people you are calling... THICK.....

Ilovewhippets · 04/04/2019 12:44

I often wonder why the Lib Dems didn't do a lot better in the 2017 GE, as they were campaigning to remain?

I also wonder that. They were, iirc, the only party which promised to ignore the referendum and stay in the EU so why didn’t all remainers vote for them?

Seymoursyourfriend · 04/04/2019 12:44

What I don't understand is posters keep saying the referendum was not binding but are adamant they want a second referendum. If referendums are not binding what be the point of having another?

I am an older person. I live in a high multi cultural area. I have friends from various cultural backgrounds, including doctors and solicitors. Some voted leave, others voted remain. We all respect each other's votes and rub along as we always have. My son is in university. His friends voted a mix of remain and leave. Only on Mumsnet are all leave voters considered to be old or thick. I may be considered to be old and thick (University wasn't the norm when I left school). I voted remain.

Its very sad to see people sniping at each other because of their own personal opinions. I'm glad it doesn't happen outside of internet forums.

AnnaNutherThing · 04/04/2019 12:52

Seymour the only person i know who has been sniping constantly about Brexit and finding it difficult to speak civily to relatives works in the media. It's a bubble all of its own, it appears to me.

Everyone else is as you report.

Hereward1332 · 04/04/2019 13:01

What I don't understand is posters keep saying the referendum was not binding but are adamant they want a second referendum. If referendums are not binding what be the point of having another?

Because they can be binding if that is enshrined in the act of Parliament which introduces the referendum e.g the Alternative Vote Referendum 2011 - Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011, section 8

IWannaSeeHowItEnds · 04/04/2019 13:09

I think the Lib Dems did do badly because they were damaged by the the student loan fiasco. I have no sympathy for them. They made an election pledge with no expectation that they would do well enough in the GE to have to make good on it. They didn't anticipate being in a position where they would have to stand by it. One sniff of power and they threw away their key policy like it was nothing. It made Clegg look like an out and out liar. They don't deserve to win an election and that's before you get into their determination to ignore the referendum because they personally don't like it!
My only slight bit of sympathy for Clegg is that he maybe tempered the worst excesses of the Tories while getting no credit and a fair bit of blame. But get in bed with the devil...

TalkinPaece · 04/04/2019 13:11

Those who think the EU is undemocratic .....
are you happy with the election system at the WTO ?

LaurieMarlow · 04/04/2019 13:12

more leave voters are from the older generation, ie. before 99.99999 % of the population went to university.

If you delve into the figures, leave voters being less well educated holds across age brackets.

LaurieMarlow · 04/04/2019 13:21

Almost all of the blame for this fiasco lies with Cameron (and to a lesser extent how May ran with it after becoming leader).

So setting up the referendum as advisory, yet talking about it as if it was binding, thus setting the expectation without either side having to comply with legalities.

Countries that hold referenda more regularly (like Ireland) have independent commissions to ensure that claims are not misleading.

Cameron had not one clue what he was doing and it's resulted in this shitshow.

Hotterthanahotthing · 04/04/2019 13:24

As many of these post indicate having a university education does is not the same as well informed.
Also university wasnt so available as it is now so has more to do with opportunity than intelligence or discernment.

IWannaSeeHowItEnds · 04/04/2019 13:24

Education doesn't just = degree though. There are plenty of well read, intelligent individuals who, for many reasons, didn't go to university. There are also plenty of people who went to uni and maybe shouldn't have. How do we really assess what 'educated' means?

LaurieMarlow · 04/04/2019 13:31

Education doesn't just = degree though. There are plenty of well read, intelligent individuals who, for many reasons, didn't go to university.

Well a usual definition for 'educated' is having received a (formal) education. It's difficult to measure self education levels. Apart from that, I'm not entirely sure what point you think you're making.

TalkinPaece · 04/04/2019 13:37

How do we really assess what 'educated' means?
By the level of academic education completed ?
The one that has evidence and statistical validity?

How many years of education have you completed
is quite a simple concept

Pengrin · 04/04/2019 13:51

Careful, the leavers will be blaming remainers for the fact they didn’t attend university next.

And then there’s all them there forrin people taking their jobs too.

IWannaSeeHowItEnds · 04/04/2019 13:53

It's not a simple concept though. I know people who left school at 15, so have very few years of formal education but read widely, are thoughtful and considered in their views. Also people who left school young to go into careers where they were trained on the job (nursing for example). Those same jobs now require university degrees. You cannot say that a nurse who trained in the 1970s isn't as well educated or knowledgeable as one who trained in the 2000s.
Seemingly the world and his dog has a degree these days - are we looking at what people studied and their degree classification before ascribing value? Some people are as thick as mince but because they finished school they count as more educated someone who was motivated enough to teach themselves on later life?
Sorry, not convinced.

LaurieMarlow · 04/04/2019 13:58

Sorry, not convinced

Not convinced about what exactly?

You appear to be mixing up objective, easily measured criteria (education levels) with subjective, impossible to measure criteria (how informed/intelligent/thoughtful one is).

Of course the former doesn't directly correlate with the latter (and no one ever said they did), but you can deduce certain things from the latter all the same.

LaurieMarlow · 04/04/2019 13:58

Sorry deduce things from the former

GinTimeAtHome · 04/04/2019 14:07

I’m at the point now where I don’t give a fuck! Saying this as someone who’s dh is losing his job etc (yeps caused by brexit) I just want it sorted one way or the other.

Stay or leave i really do not care anyone, I just wish someone in this shit charade of government could actually make a decision.

Leaver hate remainers and remainers hate leavers 🤷‍♀️ Neither side are right neither side are wrong to have a view doesn’t make you a bad person.

IWannaSeeHowItEnds · 04/04/2019 14:10

Using the leavers are less educated argument is lazy and dismissive.
Sure, you can measure years of formal education completed, but it doesn't tell you anything real because it doesn't take into account anything about the person voting, their experiences or achievements.

IWannaSeeHowItEnds · 04/04/2019 14:17

I don't hate remainers. I just don't appreciate the constant accusations of stupidity or racism levelled at people who disagree with them. I've heard awful things on threads, such as old people shouldn't have been able to vote since they won't be affected long term. And then these same people state that leavers don't understand the concept of democracy.

LaurieMarlow · 04/04/2019 14:19

Using the leavers are less educated argument is lazy and dismissive.

It’s neither of those things, it’s fact.

You can say that you personally don’t value years of education completed (and that’s your prerogative) but it’s a key measure used by social scientists to segment data so 🤷‍♀️

There’s a clear correlation between lower education and leave voting. That’s not up for debate and it helps build the picture of the type of people who voted leave.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 04/04/2019 14:19

also wonder that. They were, iirc, the only party which promised to ignore the referendum and stay in the EU so why didn’t all remainers vote for them

When i voted in 2017 i did so on the basis that we were leaving, deffo leaving...completely and utterly leaving....bye bye EU leaving

Didnt envisage this balls up at all

And also i can't vote on a single policy, i always thought that you should look at all the policies and vote on who you think is best for the country

Of course i think that if some people who voted remain even dreamt that them NOT voting for the lib dems meant that everybody would be saying that they were therefore voting for brexit ....

Well i reckon they would have voted differently

LaurieMarlow · 04/04/2019 14:21

Stating the fact that leaver voters (on average) are less educated is not the same as calling them stupid.

You do understand the difference, right? One is an objective fact and one is a subjective value judgement.