AIBU to think that Leave voters who complain about a lack of democracy are hypocrites?

[KennDodd]

Because they completely ignore the proven illegalities around the Leave campaign that would have made void the result had the referendum been binding.

“I can lobby MPs in the UK”

You can, but you can’t change who is voted for, other than your own vote and by whatever influence you have, exactly like MEPs.

I can vote for whoever I want that’s standing in any election, I can’t do anything about stopping random MEPs elsewhere being elected, just like I can’t do anything about Michael gove being elected.

“In the same way that the EU27 MEPs have had to put up with the Kippers like Batten and Farage?”

Well they didn’t have to put up with Farage much to be fair, he was clearly too busy complaining about the U.K. not having a say to actually attend and get his U.K. say in...

But I, or large groups of us, can affect policy change, can join political parties and ask that they consider our views etc. I could go to other areas and help a party that I support canvas votes.

I can't influence who France or Germany elects as MEPs can I?

No and they can't affect who we elect. Although they might do a lot better at I think than we do.

I don't contest that. It isn't a democratic institution is it because there is a majority of power not elected by the people of any one country.

That plus veto which only some countries have - is that democratic? Even though we have benefitted from it I believe that is undemocratic as a principle.

Four countries elect to the UK parliament, is that not democratic?

“It isn't a democratic institution is it because there is a majority of power not elected by the people of any one country.“

That is democracy if any one country had the majority of power it would be less democratic not more...

Thank you @ContinuityError. It is a struggle dealing with the Champagne Remaining class but someone must take them in hand.

As Julie Burchill puts it: Woke' snobs now reign in class-bound UK'. Re the BBC and the Today Programme, she quotes Michael Buerk. All four of the regular presenters will have been privately educated, like a quite remarkable proportion of other people working for the BBC on both sides of the microphone'.

`By championing diversity, the ruling class has happened upon a smart way of swerving the far greater injustice that exists in this country - the class system, which wastes more lives than any other form of oppression.

The use of the words chav' and gammon' by Remainers expresses real class hatred towards Leavers. The latter used their vote during the 2016 referendum in good faith but that faith is gone now, along with the belief in the possibility of social mobility and the end of child poverty'.

I was campaigning for Leave when a young man came to chat to us. Do carry a sign, we asked. Oh no', he replied sadly, I can't, I work for the BBC... it would make my life... awkward. Did you know', he went on, `that Chanel have moved their business to London?' I said I didn't. But blow me down, it is true. But guess what, you won't hear about it on the lefty BBC. In fact, it's only been reported in very few places.

@LittleChristmasMouse
Are you happy with the MPs that other UK constituencies elect?
eg Sinn Fein
or John McDonnell
or Kate Hoey
or Jacob Rees Mogg
or Caroline Lucas

if you object to the folks that other Europeans elect, does your vitriol extend to Brits ?

Chavvy
Still not explained how WTO democracy works then

@alsohuman; you write `as democratic as all the old people who voted and are now dead now'.

But you could say that after every election (but only elections where you disagree with the result it would seem).

The wisdom of the lefty, woke, ageist Remainer. Working hard to bring the country together, not!

The right believe the BBC is left leaning, the right think it's right biased. That makes me think they're got it about right. As for that Thatcherite, coke head, Birchill - words fail me.

Do RTFT Chavvy, that was in response to the post suggesting it was undemocratic to elect MEPs to make decisions for after (if) we leave the EU. Btw I'm too old to be ageist or "woke".

I don't think it is democratic to give some countries a veto but not all.

We have more ability to affect change within our own parliament than we do in Europe. Yes, there are 4 countries and smaller parties have MPs but usually power is held by 3 or 4 main parties (apart from TM awarding the DUP balance of power and we can all see how well that has worked) and we could all choose to join a party and influence them which we can't do within European Parliament. At the next GE certain parties will no doubt be punished for this debacle. The people of Europe don't have that control over EP.

I can't get beyond page 1.
Agree that brexit is not damaging anything. OP said... actually I know of people who have lost jobs. .
I find it hard even though mine and DH jobs are right now under threat to find sympathy for this point of view. .. this is because unfortunately I know of so many handy men, builder's, labourer Etc who lost their jobs back in 2000s and no one cared. Why are their jobs and livelihood worth any less?

Unfortunately it's karma that the politicians at that time shat on them and didn't listen or care and now... white Van man so we rided on here for being a turkey...is now voting leave.

So.... Maybe ...we society should be kinder and nicer?

Frank field wrote some great pieces on this which I find hard to ignore. Usually ...as Mumsnet is fond of saying...it always been the Turkey voting for Xmas..

Or the poor with nothing left to loose fed up of being shat on

“We have more ability to affect change within our own parliament”

Well that depends where in the U.K. you live.

alsohuman

I've seen you trot comments about dead people out many times now. .
I think your saying this is really disastful and vile.

When I read that I wonder what kind of person you are.

funnelfanjo
Clavinova the Guardian newspaper is still misleading its readers what the what now? You haven’t referenced the Guardian in this thread.Stop moving the goalposts.

If we must...

My first post on this topic was directed to DailyMailSucksWails (I named her in my post) - she had linked to an article in The Guardian - Key EU medicines regulator closes London office with loss of 900 jobs.

That’s still 220 UK direct jobs lost because of Brexit.
What do you mean by UK direct jobs?

I think most people reading The Guardian article will assume that 900 UK citizens have lost their jobs. Not only do the EMA expect 75% of their employees to relocate to Amsterdam - their latest annual report states that 840 of the 900 employees come from the other 27 EU member states (60 from the UK).

I assume that many employees relocated to London on one of the 5 year contracts, although their website states that they offer shorter contracts as well.The EMA announced their departure in 2016 - some contracts will have come to a natural conclusion in any case. If not, there is no reason to suggest that staff would not be able to obtain a similar job (in the UK if they wish) with the skills they have - the unemployment rate in the UK is at its lowest rate for 44 years.

Your link also says this;
A number of EMA staff will telework from London to allow them and their families a smooth transition to Amsterdam in the second half of 2019.
Indeed - why would staff with children want to relocate in the middle of the school year? They will obviously move to Amsterdam over the summer.

MHRA extra funding from the mythical loadsamoney Brexit Bonus? I don’t regard that as a credible option.

Back to The Guardian again ;

Figure of £14.9bn is biggest January surplus since records began in 1993-the Office for National Statistics said last month’s surplus was £5.5bn larger than a year ago.

www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/21/uk-public-finances-hit-record-surplus-to-give--philip-hammond-pre-brexit-boost

I see that the MHRA are currently advertising for a new Chief Executive Officer based in London - salary £150,000 pa.

@TalkinPaece - I wait to be enlightened about the democratic, unaudited, unaccountable utopia that is the EU that you think is so wonderful. Nothing I have read on Mumsnet has convinced me.

Small businesses suffer most from EU rules. On average, a small business will spend 28 hours a week ensuring they comply with EU rules. The EU’s regulations are designed to benefit big business.
The companies who benefit the most are the ones which can afford to indulge the whims of the MEPs and unelected bureaucrats.
Inevitably, these are the largest and richest companies who end up with laws and regs spun in their favour. Buying the political process by the richest in our society.

And what about the lobbyists!

And the massive pointless hike from Strasbourg to Brussels!

What about the bribery scandal in 2011, where an MEP accepted an offer of 100,000 euros for favourable votes on laws. There was no law he had broken to force him to resign.

Put that in your pipe, EU fanatics. And stop being so bloody rude to old people. I want you to all apologise for this terrible `ism’.

Anyway I can’t sit here all night on my ancient backside trying to talk sense to a bunch of undemocratic, woke lefties – I’m off to join the Brexit Party.

Viva la revolucion!

So @ChavvyOldBrexiteer how do you repo d to issues surrounding the East Lothian question?

No response on WTO democracy yet?

“On average, a small business will spend 28 hours a week ensuring they comply with EU rules.”

Really? Wonder how that’s calculated then because I’d have guessed about that a year going by ours tbh.

Chavvy
I have never said that the EU is any sort of Utopia
but hard Brexiters imply that the WTO is better
please explain how the WTO addresses the failings of the EU ?

Small businesses suffer most from EU rules
Indeed.
Which three do you think the UK should remove immediately upon Brexit?

Christ youre a hypocrite chavvy