AIBU to think teacher and possibly school way out of line and WWYD?

[AstoundedandConfounded]

Name changed in case I somehow out myself!

I was mistakenly sent an email by a teacher from DS's school, which said about me "Don't you just wish you could tell her to piss off. It's clear where DS gets it from."

Just to clarify DS is in 6th form and I've emailed the school 3 times in his 6 years, so I'm not an annoying helicopter mother.

I am not happy about any of this, to say the least. I've been in touch with the head, shared the email and said I want to discuss it and received an apology back.

I have a meeting set up for this Thursday and am struggling to know how best to handle it. The issue I originally emailed in about was handled so badly that I think that is still my priority but I'm really hacked off that teachers are bad mouthing me and my DS (who is a good pupil) in emails.

WWYD?

@Astoundedandconfused

Your son sounds great. The kind of kid that gets under their skin for all the reasons that mean he probably has a great future ahead of him. They hate kids who stand up for themselves, think for themselves, have their own opinions. He might cross the line now and again but it sounds like you’re trying to guide him to find the right balance. Not long to go until he gets to go to somewhere they actually encourage free thinking.

I was the same at school and it really pissed them off. But fighting injustices from a young age stood me in good stead for my life now.

I can imagine receiving the same email from a whole heap of organisations I’m involved with (school would be unlikely as I fight for them rather than against them)

You have the power. They made a big mistake. I’d raise it with them at the end of the meeting and note that if I even suspected they were being unfair to my child I’d be taking it further.

Charming? That’s like when they call a child “lively” isn’t it?
Can’t you understand that the email expresses a problem with his attitude or approach and suggests you’re where he got it from? I don’t get what you’re struggling to understand.

Oh, it would be a two stage meeting here. One with the Head to discuss the main issue and one with all three to discuss the email. The second half would involve a lot of me being silent and them grovelling in front of their boss. The outcome expected from the second part would be a face to face apology from the sender, an explanation of their language when discussing pupils and parents and a formal acceptance of the school's action to purge this sort of contemptuous behaviour from their school.

I don’t get what you’re struggling to understand.

I don’t think they are struggling to understand - the email expressed the opinion of a member of staff that OP doesn’t agree with and doesn’t have any other evidence for, whereas you seem to have taken that opinion as gospel

Yep. Maybe because I’ve had the unfortunate experience of healing with kids who are an almighty PITA and whose parents justify it as the OP does.
Shame when we can’t take an honest look at our own kids and admit their faults.
Teacher shouldn’t have done this but must be truly and completely at the end of their tether to put this in an email.

I don’t think I’ve justified any bad behaviour anywhere. I said that the head of 6th form seemed to have taken a dislike to DS and I wasn’t sure why. I wondered if it was because he was opinionated, spoke up about things, was because he might be defensive about me being a single mum (I’m guessing on that) or because we are not religious and it is a very CofE school and the two teachers emailing seem to be more old school CofE in outlook.

I was actually trying to excuse their behaviour.

Hiya.

I'm not sure how out of date this response will be but I thought I'd throw my two-penneth in. Just for a bit of background, I'm a teacher, a department head and deputy head of sixth-form.

First of all, I cannot stress enough that you are in the right here and what has happened is unacceptable. That is a given. No matter what characteristics or quirks your son might have it's wrong on all available levels. Firstly that it was put into writing at all, secondly that it was sent to you. Obviously in work people always vent and whinge. It's a coping mechanism for some. People in customer service whinge about customers etc. However putting this in writing was monumentally stupid and letting you get hold of it was frankly ludicrous.

You've received a bit of advice here though with I fear may be misleading.

First of all, a previous post by Fizzygreenwater implied that the recipient of the email should also be disciplined. This simply isn't the case. At work the only thing I have control of in terms of emails is what I send or forward to others. If I was disciplined for receiving an email (something of which I have no control) then that wouldn't be reasonable.

Secondly, another poster implied that the school will shit themselves at the news that you're seeking external advice. On this particular issue I would say that's not the case. The main reason for that is (although terrible behaviour, agreed) this mistake doesn't really make any inferences about the ability of the school to educate well or keep your son safe. It does say plenty about their level of professionalism in emails of course, but in terms of actual safeguarding or teaching standard it's nothing really. That's not to say that the teacher concerned won't be worried, they definitely will be, but I'm just saying that the Head has no reason to be losing sleep. Ultimately the children are safe and presumably well taught despite this mistake. No outside advice will affect that.

Lastly, the Head will not take into account your own opinion on what the outcome should be for that member of staff, therefore demanding a warning or dismissal will be pointless. For the most part it is the responsibility of the Head to decide how to proceed. I think the best thing that you can do is to ask for a written apology. They can't tell you what disciplinary action they eventually take against that staff member because it becomes part of their confidential employment file and to tell you would be breaking data protection law. Remember, if the action taken is deemed too harsh then the Head will be vulnerable to court action for unfair dismissal.

Now, the good news: all formal complaints (therefore please ensure that your complaint is formal) are investigated by OFSTED when they inspect a school so it is VERY much in the Head's interest to follow correct procedure and deal with it according to policy. Failure to do so would likely result in an instant OFSTED failure.

Whatever happens, as long as you insist that your complaint is dealt with formally, not only will your complaint be dealt with, but OFSTED will inevitably investigate how the Head dealt with it. You can therefore rest assured that whatever action taken will be fair and just. If it wasn't fair and just, well you'll see the school in the papers for failing their inspection.

I hope this helps. Good luck, whatever happens make sure you leave the meeting satisfied with the outcome for you. I promise you faithfully that the teacher concerned will be getting what they deserve.

BJM.

Yabbers

The kind of kid that gets under their skin for all the reasons that mean he probably has a great future ahead of him.

That would depend on what he does in the future.

They hate kids who stand up for themselves, think for themselves, have their own opinions.

If the "they" you are referring to are teachers, then that is not the case, its all about how the child puts themselves forward and their attitude.

Not long to go until he gets to go to somewhere they actually encourage free thinking.

Again that would depend on what he wants to do and on how he intends to express himself.

@AstoundedandConfounded

I honestly hope that your son goes on to do what he wants and does well in whatever career he chooses.

I don’t think the staff member was as annoyed at the pupil as at the mother, looking at the email. It’s not the boy he wanted to tell to piss off. Obviously don’t know how OP’s previous interactions with the staff member went - anything in there that triggered this OTT response?

As an ex teacher I'm shocked that anyone can try to justify the email. Totally unreasonable and unprofessional.

I would email and ask to see their IT at work policy and put in two formal complaints about the bullying and the email.

it really is an incredibly stressful job at times, and yes - we do sometimes sound off about an annoying student or parent. In an average week we can be dealing with a student's suicide attempt, self-harm, bullying, drugs, racism, homophobia, medical issues, anger and aggression from students and abuse from parents.
I don't doubt that but if you then wrote an email saying you wish one of these kids and their parent would piss off I wouldn't think you were the ideal person for the job.

OP all the best for tomorrow. I have a son who can be a bit of a justice warrior too no idea why anyone struggled to understand that obvious phrase and some teachers love it, some don't. Just like some teachers love nice gentle quiet kids and some have different opinions on them. The key as a teacher is to leave every child thinking you are positive fundamentally about them, I feel.

‘I was the same at school and it really pissed them off.’

I would hazard a guess that whoever posted this is deluding themself about how they came across at school

I repeat: teachers aren’t pissed off by students who are sparky and challenge accepted thinking in an intelligent way at the right time and place. We tend to really like it actually because it makes lessons run better and is far easier than teaching a room of lethargic disengaged pupils.

Sometimes though, students see themselves as this passionate ‘justice warrior’ but haven’t got the maturity to see that they’re actually missing the mark. They aren’t challenging things in a productive way- they waste other students and teacher time, they can be rude and are ‘on a mission’. In fact I’d say that if they identify themselves as ‘justice warriors’ or their parents do, chances are they’re actually quite a drain in the classroom because the bright sparky kids don’t need to label themselves to make a point.

In fact I’d say that if they identify themselves as ‘justice warriors’

I don't suppose the kids do. My son doesn't.

OP, it wasn’t so much the point you were making, it was the phrasing.

I don’t tell my junior staff “not to make anyone stupid” the phrase itself implies that you think the senior person is in some way stupid, and as a snapshot as to how you are phrasing things to your son, it gave me a vibe you are enabling his pain in the seas behaviour.

“Not scoring a cheap point” was a better way of phrasing it, as you did in your reply. But still not perfect, just telling him to treat people respectfully would suffice and doesn’t encourage him that he’s some superior being who needs to keep his intelligence hidden from the idiots responsible for educating him.

*look stupid

Usernumbers1234 - exactly.

A couple of things... there are many types of intelligence anyway. So the fact that a young person may be very academic, or very skilled in a particular field, doesn’t necessarily mean they have maturity or emotional intelligence.

Secondly, as a teacher I sometimes have young people in the class in front of me who are probably would score a higher IQ cognitively than me. And undoubtedly some who are brilliant at maths, sciences, computer programming and would perform better at those things than me (I teach English)

Goodness, it would be really weird if teachers never taught anyone who is cleverer then they are. How would that work? Do we really think an entire generation of teachers must always be ‘cleverer’ than the generation they teach? What a stupid idea.

The point is, teachers aren’t threatened by bright students. I love teaching bright students and in fact find it much easier than teaching students who are closed minded and disengaged. But in that classroom, I’m the one who has the years of experience of teaching. I know the syllabus inside out. I know what students need to do to achieve academically. And more importantly I know how to bring out the best in each student in the room- not just the vocal ones but the quiet ones sitting in the corner who probably have some good insights but need encouragement to put themselves forward.

Hand on heart, if the OPs son is using his intelligence in a productive way, without unfairly monopolising teacher and student time, then i can’t see how staff have developed a negative view of him.

The point about seeking the teacher out to speak 1:1 if he’s going to say something that makes them look stupid, speaks volumes.

At the end of a lesson, I have a million and one things to do... teach another lesson, make a phone call, write a document, mark essays, prep lessons.... by all means come and talk to me 1:1 if there is a genuine, intelligent conversation that needs having. But if a student expected to monopolise my time for some personal crusade - no thanks.

I really suspect there’s a big mismatch in how this lad is perceived by the parent and by the school

OP I think you (and your DS) sound bloody brilliant and don't listen to posters telling you otherwise!

I too see the clear difference between bitching and venting and I get no pleasure out of the former.

I have DCs in secondary now, but I remember being really shocked when they started at junior school at just how many mums really enjoyed bitching about people. Me and my circle until then just didn't do it - we had a laugh, sometimes at other people's expense, but it was never bitching.

For a while that school culture was a real shock to my system and made me feel like I must have lived a sheltered life. It's sadly what often happens when mainly women gather or work together though.

Hi op

I think you are the most level headed poster I have ever read.

I think your school sounds like mine and unfortunately the school culture comes from the top ie) the Head. The fact that they didn't deal with the bullying as they should have suggests that they didn't totally accept it. Why they think parents would misinterpret something like bullying who knows, or bother the school needlessly with things when we are all busy in our lives I don't know but I have found that there are two types of schools.

The first is where they truly want to work with parents for the benefit of the pupils, where they value parents opinions (as in other work sectors/clients relationships etc) and are concerned to resolve issues that arise promptly and satisfactorily.

The second type of school is where they see parents as a PITA (and pupils!) They have a level of arrogance that they are the 'professionals' and so know what they are doing, don't make mistakes and anyone who points one out is automatically a PITA.

The second type of school I'm afraid will also have a culture of bitching about parents and as you have pointed out there is a huge difference about have a moan and a personal bitch. The fact that 2 very senior people felt comfortable enough to bitch by e-mail about an individual child and pupil suggests that there is clearly a culture in that school that this is what teachers do and the Head will not be oblivious to this, in fact worryingly this tone will probably reflect his attitude. My parents were both teachers and my mum says in her last school she stopped going in the staff room because she couldn't stand the amount of bitching that teachers did at break times.

If you have any 'real' problem with a school like this, the only real recourse is a formal complaint to the governors although no guarantees there either. I worked in a school and the head was a total bully. Sacked,disciplined (on trumped up charges), scared off all the teaching staff within 18 months and most of the admin staff and somehow managed to pull the wool over the governors eyes. When the school recieved a very poor ofstead report even that was blamed on the SLT and not the Head stating the head hadn't had the support she needed. An absolute travesty of a report but she had the chair of the governors in her pocket too.

I'm afriad the first type of school in experience is becoming a rare beast unless you pay for your education directly to the school and then the teachers treat parents with respect and have a desire to resolve issues. Unfortunately in state schools my experience is that any issues a parent has is seen as a PITA as it interfers with a teacher getting on with their real job of teaching and wastes their valuable time.

Sorry to be so pessimistic but I have 4 children in a high achieving state grammar and they are so arrogant that if you raise a problem you are treated like the enemy. I have been at the school for 9 years and all been fine (ish) but in the last 12 months (following their Dad walking out and causing my children a whole range of problems) I have had 4 issues to raise with the school. None were dealt with satisfactorily from my prespective and I was summonsed to a severe telling off by the Head last week (he made me cry twice) to explain that I was now banned from e-mailing anyone in the school at all except himself as I am wasting too much teachers time. So much for teacher parent partnerhsips!

Good luck with your meeting but I would anticipate a defensive head on the attack.

Thank you Benjimoon that was really helpful.

Now, I am going to impart some of my thoughts, which are of course not something anyone has to read or agree with.

I have realised that I feel defensive about DS. What makes us good mothers does not necessarily lead to clear thinking. Despite all those posters who seem determined to believe he is a PITA (whatever that is - I've yet to see a definition and yes I do know it stands for pain in the arse) and that he might even have been the author of his own bullying, I can clarify the latter is definitely not true. I've seen, as has everyone else involved, the evidence. Screen dump, after screen dump, after screen dump - reams of pages of it. All there for everyone to see. No doubt who was involved, who the protagonists were, who stood by, who knew etc. The issue I'm trying to get to the bottom of now, is how it went on for so long and address all the failures of school policy that should have protected everyone along the way.

Most of my work involves relationships that have broken down one way or another. I'm usually trying to establish what the law is in those cases. A great deal of the time, the reason things have gone wrong is because of "assumptions". Humans are as clever as they are because they assume things and they are as stupid as they are because they assume things.

One popular assumption is that "everyone does it" - which is something that has appeared in this thread a fair bit about bitching about parents & pupils. In my experience, everyone doesn't do it at all ever and thinking that everyone does leads people to make bad choices.

Another popular assumption that gets people into bad situations, is that they think they know what other people's motivations are and what they are feeling. Again this has happened a number of times in this thread. But, I'm also doing it trying to work out why the Head of 6th seems to dislike DS and why the other teacher sent the rude email. It is a pointless exercise and we're wrong as often as we are right, so I shouldn't be doing it. I will probably never know and it actually doesn't matter.

I'm going to say again that my experience leads me to believe that gossip, tittle tattle and bitching is not a good thing to do. A bit of Adlerian psychology would suggest that the perpetrator's goals
when they do it, is for themselves. They are seeking a gratifying reaction, be that sympathy for having to deal with a PITA or admiration for knowledge passed on etc. My experience leads me to believe that when information is passed on that way, it is often exaggerated to ensure that the right response is garnered. After all if you say, "I found myself mildly irritated by John Smith in class today", that's probably going to illicit a bit of a meh reaction, but if you say "OMG, bloody John Smith was a real PITA in class today", you're likely to get the response your are actually seeking. I see this a great deal and the snowballing effect it has, that again leads people to resort to courses of actions that they shouldn't and were actually based on mostly false information.

We also project, which again is what makes humans clever but again stupid too! We take previously encountered scenarios and based on vague similarities, project what is likely to happen. With driving a car or cooking, that is very helpful, when we are dealing with other people, it isn't always the case. Lots of projection here on this thread about the type of pupil DS is and the type of parent I am, based on previous interactions with other pupils and parents - but with remarkably few facts to base those views on.

This was a AIBU and WWYD, so I asked for it and I got it and I'm glad I did and there hasn't been a single post that I haven't taken something away from.

I don't wish bad things on the teacher who wrote the email but I also don't want her to have much to do with me or my DS going forwards or the head of 6th either for that matter.

I also want to seek address and better ways forward with reflection on what went wrong with the bullying and how the school can either tighten their policies or fully apply their policies as a result. DS is fine but other pupils and parents should have some degree of confidence that the school knows what it is doing with it's own policies, even if all the aims, values and Christian principles are guff (technical term!). However, if they are not going to do this, in what I would see as the easy way, I do now have some leverage and pointers from this thread to do it in a more formal way.

I don't think I can really add much more now but thank you all again.

Scubadive

Hiya, just a minor addition to my previous comment.

That sounds awful, hitting a brick wall whenever you want to complain. All schools have a complaints procedure which normally starts with an informal attempt to resolve the issue. If that fails a formal complaint is made and usually dealt with by senior leadership which may or may not include the Head. If still unresolved then the Head will deal with it exclusively and if it remains further unresolved the next step is the board of governers (who appointed the Head in the first place).

This being the case: the next time you decide to take a complaint to the head there is very good way to ensure that your complaint is properly dealt with and it goes something like this:

"Hello Mr/Ms Headteacher, I have a formal complaint to make to you regarding x and y.... but before I do that would you be so kind as to provide me with the contact details of the chair of the board of governers? I would like to contact them directly in the event that my complaint isn't dealt with properly.

Thanks and kind regards, Ms Scubadive."

You may well be surprised at the effect that has.

BJM.

Many thanks @Benjimoon

I have got to the stage where I no longer feel that I can raise any issues at all and I may start another thread for some advice. The issues I have were not appropriate for formal complaints, I don't believe, just more things like wanting to appeal an exam result (school not interested, not doing it at A level, still got a 7 what's the problem) Another child set in the wrong maths set but school won't even consider they could have made a mistake and have refused all requests for me to go into the school to discuss. Hence I have used e-mail and now told I can't. If I set up another thread do you think you could give me some advice on how to engage with the school to address these type of issues which are not covered by actual policies and not really complaints per se.

I have nothing to add on the thread per se, but just wanted to say OP that your last post is one of the most rational, sensible and well expressed AIBU thread comments that I have ever read.
Good luck with your meeting tomorrow and I reckon your law clients are lucky to have you on their case.

I hope you are as calm and controlled in your meeting as you are in the face of AIBU!

I was a teen/young adult who challenged the teachers if I felt they were being unfair. I am a human not a robot and although I'm polite to everyone, someone has treat me kindly to have my respect - being a teacher / older doesn't instantly entitle you to my respect and my unwavering agreement.

I was always (barring once or twice in College) very polite. Explained why I felt it was wrong and often did it after class either alone or with any others the unfairness related to.

But I got along with nearly every staff member. When leaving secondary I was overwhelmed with lovely comments (read them a few weeks ago and had a little sob). Some of which I'm FB friends with now.

Both my tutors from College are on my FB and we got on really, really well. I just wasn't a robot. I believed in voicing my opinions rationally but with heart if the issue called for it.

I see the OPs son being similar - good for him. I do find some staff love their students to challenge well, life. Others though give the impression that as you are young you should do as your told/they are older and wiser and they don't want to appear in a negative light. Like OP says much older, religious establishments seem to have this attitude a fair bit.

I hope whatever the issue that needed addressing gets addressed OP - also hope that the Head will be a lot more amicable.

Hi Op I’m late to this thread but I wanted to say there is no excuse whatsoever for the level of unprofessionalism displayed in the email. Contrary to what some posters have said, I think it should absolutely form part of your discussion with the head, in the context of culture, professionalism and attitudes towards your son. If this is their attitude towards your son how can he ever expect the HoY or pastoral care to have his back on any issues? I would find this deeply troubling.
In this rogue email, they’ve actually done you a favour as You’ve had valuable insight on how they view your son and their attitude towards him. Your last post was fab too.