My mum lives with me but acts like a guest

[lookybooky]

My father passed away 4 years ago and my mum (early 60's) was so distraught that I invited her to move in with my family. We didn't have a spare room so she gave us £80k to build an extension (she has the 2 rooms that we built). At the time she said it was all she could spare but that was fine as it was enough for the 2 storey extension which includes a bathroom and kitchenette. She also pays £150 p/m towards bills. She doesn't babysit or do any housework or gardening but she was a bit miserable for the first year so I didn't expect any help. But we're in year 4 now and all she does is watch TV and go shopping or meet friends. Again, I could probably deal with that but I've just found out that she gave my brother almost exactly the same amount of money (only £10k less) at the same time as she gave me. AIBU that she's living like a guest in my home while he gets to do whatever he wants with the money (he's invested it into property I believe)? I've pointed out that I feel it's unfair but she said it's her own business and if I'm unhappy, I should return the £80k and she'll get a retirement flat. She won't move in with my bro as she hates his wife!

Clairemcnam - ah there's lots of truth in there. Yes, looking back I think that is exactly what I hoped - but in total naivety really. You're pretty much correct on all points. But how to address that without WW2 breaking out. Kids do hear the arguments occasionally which I hate

She cooks and cleans for herself but she doesn't drive so I take her to hospital appointments and supermarket.

^^

So she makes herself food, but not you and the kids? After you've been in work all day? But she expects chauffeur service?

That's not even unfair, it's nonsensical.

If she's not living in your house why do you expect her to pay a third of the bills?
She's living separately and the share of bills needs to reflect that.

Because even though she living separately, the annex is not an independent unit of accomodation. She is home all day, meaning the heating and lighting bills have escalated. It may be worth DM paying for separate utilities for the annex if there is going to be probl me in sharing the bills.

I might have forgotten the quotation marks in that first paragraph of my last post.

Genuinely confused about why she should have input because she lives in the vicinity. They aren’t her children, they’re her grandchildren. Parenting a personal thing and in all honesty l don’t know why she’s interfering in it.

In four years, I have asked my mum.to collect my kids from school 3 times. That's it. She has never changed a nappy, never given them a bath or put them to bed. So no, I hardly think it's fair to say I'm using her. In fact I'd say that most grandmothers living in the same town would do a lot more for a daughter who works full time. No, she doesn't cook for the family, only herself. It's not that she is out all the time or off on holidays, she doesn't enjoy looking after kids and said that quite clearly. Fine, I have to deal with that but I can't figure out what's reasonable in how to handle the money return.

Fine, I have to deal with that but I can't figure out what's reasonable in how to handle the money return.

^

The money return? What exactly do you mean? How little she contributes, or paying her out re the 80k?

Ok both you and your mother are right.

I'll start with your DM. She didn't have to give you and your brother any money. I'm guessing it's a fair arrangement in her mind because she pays a monthly long-term contribution towards bills, and you got more money than your brother. Basically you got a bigger share of gift/inheritance after you dad died with the idea that your DM would stay with you. Also, there could also be conversations or concerns she shared with your dad before he died about your brother, so there might be more reasoning behind why he received a large sum.

You are also right because if she expects you to become her carer in old age then she needs to provide childcare and transport for her grandchildren now while she is in good health, otherwise she is using you. Many other cultures have parents live with them and take care of their parents but there is a reasonable expectation that the parents will help with childcare. If I were in your shoes I would try to discuss what her plans are when she gets to an age of needing extra medical care.

I would ask her to pay a third for the council tax, the WiFi, any subscriptions, a quarter of the utilities (maybe a third is she keeps the heating full blast). Do you have home and building insurance? I Would make her pay her way on the bills. A quarter to a third. Sorry, but she can't have it all ways.

I think it is also time you toughened up your boundaries OP. The four years together has not brought you closer. You need to make sure you and your DH and children are getting what you need, privacy, autonomy. I would totally ignore anything she said about your parenting as if she isn't there. Go about your business. Also, you should make sure you have the support of your husband. He may have some things he wants to change going forward - ask him how he sees this living arrangement in the long term.

that was meant to just say money. ie bills or, if we decide it just won't work, whether I have any right to mention DB's money.

So she has minimal to do with the other areas of the house, juts mainly sticks to herself in her own areas. She doesn't need to participate in your family life if she doesn't want to. I'm assuming that the money she spent on your house will be yours regardless of what happens with her in the future? She can spend her money and her time as she wishes. If you believe that her bills are more than her current contribution- increase it. Don't assume that she wants to be enmeshed in your daily family life. Maybe ask her to dinner once a fortnight, to include her if you want to?

'I'm guessing it's a fair arrangement in her mind because she pays a monthly long-term contribution towards bills, and you got more money than your brother. Basically you got a bigger share of gift/inheritance'

Which is true to some extent, although it is worth noting that the DB does gain a rental income every month which exceeds DM contribution towards her bills and will either have, or will in the near future, exceed the additional £10,000 the OP got over her brother.

I think you do have a right to mention your brothers money in the context of your mother asking for the £80k back from you.

This is based on the presumption that she gave him £70k to equalise the money she gave to you.

As such, logically the reverse is true.

There's a lot of issues here that I think you need to separate out.

1. Her Criticism of parenting - not on

1. You expecting her to clean/garden the "wider house" etc - not on

1. If the bills are higher than £150 (though I'm struggling to see how) - she needs to pay more

1. Expecting driving favours but not reciprocating with emergency (as opposed to regular) childcare - not fair

1. Threats of leaving and demanding money back - not acceptable unless she's equally expecting your brother to do the same

1. Giving your brother money - up to her and you need to let that go with the caveat of point 5 above.

In all honesty I think you need to step back a bit and think about the long term picture.

That has to start with a conversation with you and your DH. Then when you've decided where you want to go with this (continue on but with some changes) or instigate a new set up, both of you have a conversation with your mother.

To be honest, I think you have a few issues going on here.

The money your brother got is his inheritance, if I am right?

You agreed to take your mother in, that was your choice and if that isn't working then something else will need to be done.

I think if you felt she paid more as your costs keep increasing then that would be good. I think you are reasonable to like some help but I don't sense you demand it/expect it. If your mother isn't part of your immediate family unit (by her choice) then she needs to adjust her expectations from you. You're not unreasonable OP.

GPaz I very much doubt £70k bought a flat outright.

We've no way of knowing what her brother gains each month but on balance it's likely a lot of rent pays the additional mortgage - but that's a supposition.

There's no way of knowing in the longer term from what's been posted who might benefit best financially - the OP with the extended house or the brother with rental income and overall equity in the flat.

Why doesn’t she want to spend time with her grandchildren? My DM would do anything to spend more time with my DCs, but distance makes this difficult

My grandmother paid for a grannyflat at the back of my parents which added value to their property and nothing was given to the other children but here is why I think it’s fair.. my father put in a lot of time and effort into the building of the property which lowered her costs dramatically.. My mother puts in a lot of time and effort looking after my grandmother as my grandmother cannot get around by herself and is not well. My mother cooks dinner etc.. if my parents go on holiday I stay there to look after her. So it does impact my parents life a lot.. not that they would change it.

In your case your mum is young and able and you don’t have to put in much effort.. so it’s fair she gave your brother something aswell. Maybe the extra amount doesn’t make up for the no stipulation your brother got but maybe you need to decide what difference would have been more equal and then decide if it’s worth beating this up over what might be 10k.

DeRigueurMortis

True, it was more further considerations to another post suggesting fair arrangements.

Op, I think you were mad to think of letting her live with you.
She doesn’t babysit, but has the gall to pass comment on your parenting.
She then pays a minimal £150 a month for bills. That is cheap.
Find the £80k, give it to her, and drop her off at db’s house. She can go and ponce off him.

This a tricky one, because it was never a purely financial arrangement and something you chose to do out of concern for her, but YANBU.

If you compare the two sums of money, his was a gift to be spent how he chose, whereas yours was given as a business deal of sorts with strict conditions about how it was spent and the assumption that she could live with you for life on the back of it.

He’s been able to invest his money to create more monthly income and whereas yours has added a little more value, it’s capped out and has cost you much more in the hassle of building work and the long term commitment to your mum. As she gets elderly the bulk of the responsibility for her care will fall to you, not to him, by dint of her being in your house.

If you take the extra 10k that you were given you could call that £200 per month rent (spread over the 4 years) which is nothing, but from hereonin it’s free and she might live another 30 years like this.

This really isn’t fair, but by the sounds of it you are going to have a very hard time getting her to acknowledge that.

I actually think it was really rude to give your db 70k especially as she said 80k was her threshold. I understand the logic but it’s skewed as yours was to buy a chunk of house and not pay you any rent. 80k plus £150pcm is a bargain for her to live with you for the next 30 years.

The next time she suggests getting the 80k back tell her you’ll remortgage the house, buy a flat and she can rent it off you at market rate if living in your home no longer suits. However she will no longer be talking down to you and undermining your parenting decisions. She doesn’t need to know you can’t afford to do this. And deffo up your contribution to something, which reflects her cost of council tax etc.

It is disgusting that she expects to be looked after, run around and is contributing nothing to the household or helping out with your children. Especially as you are working and she isn’t. Making them a drink and a bowl of cornflakes in the morning isn’t contributing.

I think a lot of people are missing the fact that the Mum has said that if OP wants her to move out that she needs to give the money back while her brother has been handed the money and is free to use it as he wishes and live without his mother in his house. It is definitely unfair.

I also don't think that a measly $70pw comes close to the extra expenses involved in having her living there if she eats the food that OP buys and presumably has extra heating, water, gas and electricity in her end of the house so I don't think it's unfair to resent her lack of contribution to general cleaning and upkeep of the house.

I can understand why you'd be upset at the perceived unfairness of the money given to you and your brother, but in reality, the sad fact is that it isn't any of your business what she chooses to do regarding her money and other people. That's difficult to swallow when siblings are being treated differently, i know. But you aren't entitled to any money from your mother, which extends to an equal and fair accounting with your sibling. I'd just let that line of thinking go because it's not helpful to you.

It sounds like the amount she pays and the fact that she doesn't do housework outside of her rooms could be reasonable if she's not making mess or using the wider house very much.

However if shes' not going to involve herself in helping out with the kids she gets literally no say in how you raise them (otherwise than them being in real danger, not just imaginary fox danger). If i were you every time she mentions your parenting i'd say something like 'your input has been noted' in as bored-sounding monotone as you can muster and repeat until ridiculous. If she gets no reaction then criticising you won't reap rewards for her.

Also, she's a guest in your house. If you don't want her to live with you indefinitely (which would be soooo reasonable) you can sit her down and talk to her about options for moving out, or discuss revised ground rules/increased rent. Just because she paid for the extension does NOT mean she has a continuing right to live with you on her terms.

Unless otherwise legally structured, the money she gave was a gift and she has no right to ask for it back.

You need to sit down and say "you didn't give us £80k. You paid for your own living space; I had no choice over it and you've said that if you go, you want that money back but I can't simply sell up part of my house. That money wasn't a gift to me and doesn't benefit me in anyway. You gifted the same amount to my brother. He now has an extra income from the flat he bought and when he sells he will no doubt make a profit, so he got a huge lump sum, continues to get income every month and will be able to sell to get the lump sum back plus more. Can you explain why you believe that to be fair? You could be living with me for another 30 years so the increase in my property value make no difference to us but the income my brother received makes a difference to his life. On top of that, I'm subsidising your living costs as you don't pay your fair share of bills and you don't pay for your own food, so in actual fact your living her costs me money. What do you think we can do to make the situation between me and my brother fair, and to fix the bill issue?"

You can also tell her than from now on, you see that money as a gift just like your brother got his as a gift. She is welcome to leave anytime but you won't an returning her gift unless your brother also returns his. If you don't have any written agreement and she takes you to court then your defence is that she gave you both a gift but you chose to spend yours on providing her a living space until she was ready to move on.

Do you have separate entrances? Sorry haven't rtht. If not, she bought you off OP I'm afraid to say. Now it's a noose.
Ideally sell the house give her the money back and try and stay friends.
In the great scheme of things she's still young.
I'm sorry about your DF.