For those who would never let a baby cry it out. What's mu next option?

[BoobiesToTheRescue]

Bedtime at 6.30pm last night. He was exhausted and I couldn't make it much later by 11.15pm he had woken between 10-15 times, roughly every 15 minutes. The rest of the night was horrific. Nights have been mainly horrific most of his life.
He's 13 weeks breast feeding and I've eliminated all top allergy food groups for 2 months now.

He's breastfed and I've followed a routine by Little Ones so I know he's getting a near-as-damnit good amount of sleep during the day.
So I've tried:

-making very sure he's not over or under tired
-sleep cues, darkness, white noise, swaddle
-strict bath and bed wind down routine
-feeding to sleep (refuses to feed after a while)
-patting a shushing
-rocking to sleep
-cuddle to sleep
-buggy/car seat (the second the movement stops he's awake).
-co-sleeping
-own cot
-swing chair
-meds for reflux
-pain meds in case it was teething or other pain
-raising the mattress
-swaddle
-checked room temperature
-dry nappy

• skin is good, no hair tourniquets
• dummy (rejects)
• clothes that smell like me

-muslin with my milk I've tried more besides these are just the obvious one

Last night I'd exhausted every avenue, he won't sleep on me so just getting up and sitting in the rocking chair with him doesn't work.
Eventually I lay next him him with him crying and he fell asleep.
Then he woke 2 mins later and cried again. So that doesn't even work.

This is absolute hell.

Definitely cut out caffeine!! Thats not good for him.
I had the same supply issues and baby hated feeding. Switched to expressing into bottles and baby was much happier. Breast isnt always best with some babies! Eventually changed to mix feeding then dropped breast milk altogether.

So, annoyingly - if you've been on MN as long as I have you'll realise that all those posters who kept complaining over the years that "in a few years it will change to 4 months again" and got shouted down by increasingly impatient "but allergies" insisters may well have been right in some way - but as mentioned before I highly doubt official UK advice will change due to this prevalance of the idea that < 4 months is a reasonable time to wean which is more dangerous for the majority of babies than waiting until 6 months, is even for allergy babies. It would be nice if all allergy risk babies get to see a specialist, though.

Also FWIW this time we did a kind of BLW from 17 weeks and I didn't rule out any food groups but went easy on grains, as there is evidence that there is little nutritional benefit until much later. DS2 did not really ingest anything until about 19 weeks but by 5 months was consistently signalling that he wanted solid food at least once a day - and surprised me by displaying a massive preference towards being spoon fed.

This also well worth a read in terms of your degree, not so much to help with your baby: www.pinterandmartin.com/complementary-feeding.html

My dd had reflux (caused by a medical condition that needed surgery), she was on all sorts of meds to control it until her surgery date. I had to co-sleep with her and hold her upright after each feed for as long as possible.
She also had to sleep on her front (against SIDS guidelines), but the HV lent me an apnea monitor that attached (by tape) to her stomach and the alarm would sound if she stopped breathing. To be honest, it seemed quite a sensitive monitor and would often sound for no reason, but it did give me peace of mind.
We also propped up our bed, so it was slightly raised at the head end.
She still screamed /cried a LOT and i never had more than an hours continuous sleep, but i learnt to rest when she did and just got by. It was horrendous and you have my sympathy. Remember, this too shall pass.

It's very big in the infant health world at the moment at least in the US. I found it due to curiosity at comparing the UK guidelines to the German ones where I live and then became curious about US ones, those being the other easy to find guidance in English language on the net. I'm not always that much of a fan of US recommendations because I sometimes think they can be a bit suspect, but I think they are ahead of the curve with this one.

I'm not sure how much caffeine goes into milk. Might be worth a trial. I suspect it's in the category of "don't eat onions when bf" but I could be wrong, it is fat soluble.

Controlled crying.

In the kindest way, what you're doing is ridiculous.

Part of parenting is helping your child learn how to sleep.

Did you read that he's 13 weeks? What the OP is going through is just awful but he's so little - only really just not a newborn. I have never seen any sleep expert who would advise doing CC with a baby this small - partially because there almost certainly is something wrong. He's too young to have developed strong sleep associations (and clearly doesn't have them anyway because if he did the OP would have a way of getting him to sleep that worked, no matter how briefly! Ie if he had a sleep association with feeding to sleep then he would feed to sleep, even if he then woke up again soon) so trying to remove these and get him to self settle is both developmentally inappropriate and almost certainly pointless - if he's waking in pain he's not going to stop waking even if he can go to sleep alone.

Were your other babies also breastfed? It's really hard to give Gaviscon to a breastfed baby. It might be worth, given the state of desperation you're at, giving him expressed milk just so you can put the Gaviscon in and give it a proper go. I'm not quite sure why you're so reluctant to try a bottle - given that you're getting to the point where you're considering leaving a tiny baby to cry, isn't it worth a go?

What a gorgeous boy

boobies

Hopefully if its the reflux it will be srted now and i hope it all calms down (ds1 hated that bit when I sprayed him with my boob...got filthy looks off him )

This is a bit off piste and potentially woo but my friends baby did not sleep...napped 10 minutes every hour morning and night, whne he was 2 she took him to get cranial osteopathy which was very effective.

But hopefully the other posters have sorted it for you and you'll get some sleep!!!

I also think over supply and forceful letdown of breast milk. Had a similar baby. Would breastfeed until he felt poorly. Took in lots of air, frequent vomiting including projectile, generally grumpy, crying thing, not sleeping much due to gas.

I found that side lying nursing made his gas worse, as he couldn't burp. I also found sleeping on his tummy helped.

Oh goodness he's scrumptious op!!

Apologies if you’ve already seen this, I found it really useful so I thought I’d share. www.bsaci.org/about/early-feeding-guidance

I won't add to the many comments and suggestions here as I don't have experience of allergies etc.

I do have experience of non sleeping baby and the severe impact on my mental health.
I know that when things are like this everything is focused on the baby and getting his needs met. Please please look after you too a little bit at a time and when things improve. A bigger break.

He is totally gorgeous and I don't say that about babies ever. Despite this shite you are amazing and doing a great job.

Sending flowers.. didn't think cups of coffee would be helpful!

You could try elimination communication. If you Google elimination communication position, even using the position with baby wearing a nappy may help relieve some discomfort.

Also you could try a sling in the daytime, I find my ds sleeps when he needs if he is in it which takes no extra effort from me.

I have no idea if these will work but I can imagine it's worth trying. I really feel for you, its sounds like you are doing your very best and I hope something works soon for you.

Op , I massively feel for you. I can hear the desperation in your voice. I’ve had two of these sleepers , my first (who didn’t sleep until a year) was an absolute doddle by comparison to my other two. I’m not going to say it’s all going to get easier as tbh when it didn’t for me I found that so disheartening. It did of course eventually get better but the lack of sleep was excruciating. I also got so fed up with suggestions as nothing fucking worked.
The fact is it could be anything, it does sound like discomfort, my second was a horrendous sleeper for years , he is v intolerant to wheat, huge difference when we cut that out. It sounds like you are on a very restrictive diet already though.. I would definitely try infacol, we saw a slight improvement with that. I am sure you have heard this a million times but could it be reflux? Are they gaining enough weight etc?
Finally the only thing that actually worked for was to accept that they were awful sleepers and manage the situation. Assuming you have a partner you have to take it in turns if at all possible, I know this is tricky with bf but you need to get a block of 4 hours sleep. Everything is easier with sleep. I used to go to the attic (we have a tiny house too) , stick the ear plugs in a try and get a block of sleep.
It will get better but it might take time. You need to manage in the meantime. Also don’t try and compare with other babies etc. I did and found that so difficult. I live in Ireland which I swear must be the top formula feeding country of Europe and all the babies sleep here from three months. I found it very isolating having bad sleepers, apart from my dh I had no family support either.
I agree with a pp it’s so important to look after yourself so that you can look after the baby. Try and get that block of sleep.

He is gorgeous, OP!

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but I had a reflux baby who never slept more than 30 minutes at a time. I bought a sling wrap, and wore her pretty much all day long. It kept her more upright, which helped the reflux, and it meant I could just carry on with stuff while she was near me. Eventually, she was sleeping in longer stretches in the evening, so I was able to get her in her little cot and start a bedtime routine.
It really sucks, OP....being so tired is soul destroying. Didn't see if you had support...even if someone could come play with him for an hour so you could get your head down, it might make you feel a bit better!

Some of the things you are saying remind me of my DD. Especially the choking, excessive dribbling and the drawing breath that you describe.

How is his breathing - is it noisy - and does he snore when he does sleep?

I haven't read it all but I do see a lot of suggestions of formula. I agree normal formula, even anti reflux or comfort formula are not going to work. All 3 of my children have ended up on Neocate LCP prescription formula - it literally has no traces of cows milk or soya or any other allergen in it. It is fully hydrolysed - it stinks lol but it is amazing stuff and all of mine have thrived on it. It is a very thin milk though so you will need to thicken it with Gaviscon but due to its thinness it won't cause the usual constipation issue.

My youngest we found ranitidine made her acid reflux worse - it made her scream like she was being murdered! Omeprazole didn't do much but finally as she started losing weight and dropped before 0.4 centile the peadiatrician prescribed lansoprazole soluble tablets to be dissolved and given by syringe in the morning, she was still to continue gaviscon and the neocate milk and wean initially just on baby rice/porridge from 17 weeks. She is now 16 months and she was able to wean off the lansoprazole at 13 months, she still can not tolerate dairy though. The lansoprazole is also weight sensitive though so the dose needs checking a lot, it did take the full 2 weeks to fully notice improvement and I was almost ready to give up on it as she was still so sick but it did get better, and of course it does improve once they can sit up as well. Hang in there x

OP I don't know what position you feed him in, but if you don't already, try positioning him fully upright for feeds (pic hopefully atrached), gravity will help him cope with the let down and should hopefully ease the reflux a little bit.

Also has he been checked for tongue tie, as well as his other issues? My DS had his snipped at 9 weeks, no reflux but he swallowed loads of air when feeding which made him very very gassy and angry.

That amount of waking and being distressed is very unusual. Have you seen HV and GP? This doesn't sound like a habit or sleep training issue, there is something causing this baby to be unable to sleep. Hope you can get some help from a medical professional and have more rest soon you must be exhausted.

We used a sling and took turns sleeping nights for few months really. It's so hard.

So:
We used zantac and neocate milk and a sling and a sleep roster.

Best of luck.

Yes it could be reflux taking his breath but could also be something else. I can't remember what it's called but my friends son has an issue with his throat and breathing when lying down so it's worth seeing the GP.
My reflux son did brilliantly on Comfort Milk, although obviously up to you if you want to stick out breastfeeding.
Also, many people have had amazing results from seeing a baby chiropractor or osteopath. It's quite expensive but could be worth a consultation in your situation. Poor baby obviously has something going on. My nephew refused to lie down until the chiropractor did something, then he slept like an angel after. Sorry for the vagueness. I couldn't afford it, so don't have first hand experience.
Keep soldiering on, you are a mummy warrior!

I have really strong let down too and had to feed dd by lying on my back with her on her tummy on top of me. That helped her get over the fear, as it came out slower.

You don’t need to do cry it out. Do controlled crying, where you go in at times intervals.

So you go in pick up cuddle, lay back down and leave the room do this every 2/4/6 minutes etc it’ll take time but It’ll work.

Is he showing any signs of allergic colitis (mucusy poo with blood in)? My dd had this (though I think she was 7kg at 2 (years) or something and we didn't have feeding probs, so very different kettle of fish). I cut out dairy for a while (and I hadn't been lighter than I was then for a good ten years...) and gave probiotics, dissolved in breast milk. I think the latter were more influential tbh. It passed by 6 months.

My DS was similar with silent reflex and crazy excessive drool.

In the end I was advised to prop one end of his mattress up for overnight and wedge him to sleep on his side instead of his back.
I also used a baby carrier/sling for day naps (I saw you can't do this but could DP?) or you use it when you are seated so he can sleep upright day/night if you're desperate.

He also had tongue tie.

He had an underlying issue too which related to him breathing with a wheeze. You haven't mentioned this (as far as I read) so not quite in the same boat.

Good luck, you sound like you are doing an amazing job x

It sounds like you have got loads further with this, it totally sounds like reflux still. One thing - apologies if it has been answered - if he struggles so much with the feeding and your let down then how about expressed milk in a bottle? (especially as it sounds like you wouldn't find it too hard to produce lots of expressed milk!) Not directly connected to the reflux maybe, but wondering if some of his overall anxiety might be soothed by a new mode of feeding where he isn't left gagging etc. Hating being put to the breast can't be helping the whole 'feed-soothe-sleep' thing even without the reflux? No to formula though, can't see how that would do anything except risk an allergic reaction.

Good luck