For those who would never let a baby cry it out. What's mu next option?

[BoobiesToTheRescue]

Bedtime at 6.30pm last night. He was exhausted and I couldn't make it much later by 11.15pm he had woken between 10-15 times, roughly every 15 minutes. The rest of the night was horrific. Nights have been mainly horrific most of his life.
He's 13 weeks breast feeding and I've eliminated all top allergy food groups for 2 months now.

He's breastfed and I've followed a routine by Little Ones so I know he's getting a near-as-damnit good amount of sleep during the day.
So I've tried:

-making very sure he's not over or under tired
-sleep cues, darkness, white noise, swaddle
-strict bath and bed wind down routine
-feeding to sleep (refuses to feed after a while)
-patting a shushing
-rocking to sleep
-cuddle to sleep
-buggy/car seat (the second the movement stops he's awake).
-co-sleeping
-own cot
-swing chair
-meds for reflux
-pain meds in case it was teething or other pain
-raising the mattress
-swaddle
-checked room temperature
-dry nappy

• skin is good, no hair tourniquets
• dummy (rejects)
• clothes that smell like me

-muslin with my milk I've tried more besides these are just the obvious one

Last night I'd exhausted every avenue, he won't sleep on me so just getting up and sitting in the rocking chair with him doesn't work.
Eventually I lay next him him with him crying and he fell asleep.
Then he woke 2 mins later and cried again. So that doesn't even work.

This is absolute hell.

The screaming when feeding is reflux. My eldest did this. Would scream for a bottle when he was hungry, gave it to him and then he would cry at the teat because he was in pain from feeding. Then he wasn't feeding so getting hungry. Hence constantly crying!

I know you are breastfeeding, I formula fed mine so slightly different perspective and options. You need to keep them upright as much as physically possible. Upright when sleeping, upright when feeding for an absolute minimum of 30 minutes after a feed. Youngest needed an hour. I laid mine upright against my chest, so their chest was against mine and they would always fall asleep like that. Once it was deep enough they could be transferred to the cot. I know it goes against every bit of advice but have you tried sleeping on their stomach?

Also, with formula I was able to switch the milk to a formula that was cows milk free therefore not making me even more miserable by having to constrict what I ate. I was also able to see a quick improvement in him with that.

Have they looked at his tonsils, adenoids, that sort of thing? My brother as a baby was just like this. He would scream all through the night, refusing a dummy or feeding because laid down he was struggling to breathe. It wasn't obviously that though, and it took a long time to work it out. He had his tonsils and adenoids removed when he was about 7 months old and changed overnight into a completely different baby. I just thought it was worth mentioning as I haven't heard of any other babies like him, so wouldn't think it is often looked into.

Sorry OP, no solutions. Mine have both been terrible sleepers as babies. The only way to cope was acceptance. Then minute you stop stressing about getting them to sleep the "right" way the easier it feels. If he won't sleep in his cot then don't make him. Just let him.sleep on you in the evenings, sit down and relax. I think we all get fixated on getting the evening back but you're not getting any evening with the way things are anyway and you've tried everything! He's little and needs contact atm, it won't be forever. DD would only sleep in a hugging position like a little koala at that age. At the time it feels never ending but
slowly but surely both DC found their own way.

Hi Boobies, I have an overactive letdown too. When you feel the initial letdown come on, have you tried taking your boob away from your baby to catch the first jet of milk then re-latch him once it slows down. It might help him enjoy the feed more.

Is excessive dribbling a sign of reflux or a side effect of the meds?

He's always dribbled excessively. I thought it was teeth but there's zero signs of them.

I have to change bibs every half an hour. And the washing! Jeez. 😭

BluePheasant I can accept waking every 15 minutes easily though, it makes me want to cry.

Sling! I wish, I'm so very envious of those who can sling.

I have scoliosis, sciatica, and I strongly suspect the beginning of a slipped disc. I can't use slings though I have tried.
He's also an enormous baby, 17lb 4ozs a last weigh in, which isn't helping my back.

My DD has silent reflux and couldn’t lie flat to sleep because of the pain from the acid. Same thing: constant crying, waking, unsettled. Wouldn’t take a dummy either.

We got a foam wedge block to raise her upper body and we took a chance and laid her down to sleep on her side. (I feed to sleep as it was the only ways she’d settle.) we used a side sleeper prop — two small bits of foam that lay either side of her middle and supported her.

All naps were in her buggy or in a sling. We co-slept do I could maximise my sleep. Gaviscon did help a little.

Good luck. It’s awful for both your baby and you. DD was a bad sleeper for a long time but now, as an 8yo, has no trouble with either acid reflux or sleep, thank heavens.

had* not has.

I too used to nearly choke my son when feeding! The let-down was a torrent that he couldn't cope with and would choke. So, having read ALL your OP and PPs ideas, this is my hit-up:

1. Deal with the choking/uncopable-with let-down so he feeds better - he may not be getting to the hindmilk which means he doesn't get the fatty part of the feed (just thinking what could be happening here) and also if they only get the foremilk, it makes it 'bubbly' in their tummies like gas and can cause discomfort. What are his poos like - do they look at all bubbly?? So, try and feed in a way that doesn't have him lying down super flat on his back - position yourself with cushions to support him and you so that he can be more upright. Do you have breast pumps? I could also try just ahead of when you want to feed him, express purely to get the let-down activated and pump off that let-down phase of milk until it's subsided to a more receivable level of flow - then try him with the more upright position whilst bfeeding. Remember, the nipple/areola is 360 degress, a circle. You can in fact put him onto that boob at ANY of those 360 different degrees (technically you could have a baby over your shoulder upside down feeding! You wouldn't but technically you could - I hope yswim). So it is possible to make him more upright and to deal with the excessive flow. He'll be able to cope with that flow when he's a bit bigger but this might work for now and get you to the point where he takes hindmilk every time and you see milk transfer - it should be looking and sounding like this (whether he's awake or asleep!!) www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WWzPBI7kEg. Also, a 'good' feed (good latch, good milk transfer) can take only 5 minutes and they will often self-detach because - they're done. How does he behave at the breast when he feeds and is not overtired - is he fidgety??
2. If the above fails, I'd ring ahead and go straight to the breastfeeding clinic at John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford, IF that's not to far from you. Find out if Sally Inch is still there - it's free and you can bfeed there several times in a visit and they will help you and position you and get you understanding the perfect latch

I think you have a feeding problem more than a sleep problem (and that's casting no aspertions on you OP whatsoever). The most bloody infuriating aspect of bfeeding is, it only has to be slightly wrong to be completely wrong! And then you get all sorts of problems. If you respond to some of the stuff in point 1 it might help people figure out if it might be to do with latch, foremilk/hindmilk imbalance (which is down to latch) and then can cause additional problems with tummy gas and feeling hungry as opposed to being in pain from acid.

Put him on his front? Not ideal, but mine (incl one with silent reflux - we ended up on omeprazole which was brilliant for her) both slept way longer when on their front. We did it at about 5 months, but might be worth a punt a little earlier.

Try and to colic bottle with stage 1 test to see if it has a slower flow than your boobs? Dr browns are good.

'Anti-colic' bottle, I mean.

My daughter was exactly the same. We got a Sleepyhead and it largely cured her sleep issues. Instant sleep it was amazing.

You can hire them for a week to see if they work if you don't want to shell out.

Based purely on my own experience in a situation that was almost identical to what you are describing, I'd try giving a FF in the evening. I did it to get a break from the screaming so DH could give a feed (I had no joy expressing) and it was like having a different baby. I had exactly the same with feeding, bobbing off and gagging with a strong letdown, the baby was gaining weight well, I had no indication that there was any issue with my supply (knowing expressing isn't a good indicator). But it made all the difference.

I know you probably don't want to do it, and it might not feel like the best thing to do for the baby, but you sound so desperate and that's what worked for us in what sounds like a remarkably similar situation.

Also, I had one baby that gaviscon made constipated so we could only give it twice a day (but that was enough to make a difference) and another that had it with every feed with no issues. So it may well be worth trying that with the evening feed and not be put off by experience with another baby.

Good luck.

First of all well dobe for being able to write a coherent post, took me around 3 years to recover.

Dd1 had silent reflux, still does at 6. She also has giant tonsils, they meet and overlap, some sleep apnea as a baby tongue tie, self severed and lip tie. She has never slept flat, until 2 years old could only sleep on her side, on a slope or propped up in a poddle pod. When feeding i had to express by hand inutially and reduce let down then let her feed. She either fed on her side proped up or upright. Gaviscone made her worse.
My friends severely allergic baby had a hoarse voice, still does 6 years later, due to the reflux burning.
Neither of my girls could go in the pram baskets both were straight to sitting up in seats.
Try getting your partner to sling after some feeds to see if it helps.

Good luck it will get better

I forgot my DGS dribbled a lot, he always had a red face, now the fact that I forgot means it does pass, however I doubt my DD has forgotten. He was also becoming rather chunky which is one of the reasons he was weaned early. And he hated tummy time until the reflux was controlled.

Sleep deprivation is made infinitely worse when it is accompanied by listening to your baby screaming. And the anxiety of knowing that you are going to be awake half the night doesn't help. Do you have much support?

My friend has the same she tried this and it helped

Cranial osteopathy is a specialised form of osteopathy that is used throughout the body not just the head. Craniosacral therapy stems from cranial osteopathy but works on the 'craniosacral system'. The craniosacral system is said to comprise of the membranes and fluids that surround the brain and spinal cord.

Try a hippy chick hip seat to save your back!

It sounds awful OP and I know it’s hard. He is too young for any cc or cio methods anyway. I know it’s not a great option but I just waited it out. Didn’t look at the clock in the night, brought him into bed with me and tried to carry on until it passed. Which it did

I'd try a bottle of formula.

Also he's only 13 weeks and you have a long list of things you've tried - I think you need to pick a few things and stick to them consistently.

My son was like this - it's awful 💐 but it does get better.

P.s. I went through a few stages of having too much milk and him not getting to the fattty part of the feed. Have him wind and made him throw up his feeds a lot and he would choke and splutter. What worked for me was block feeding. I’d have to do it after every growth spurt but it always worked like a charm. Research it first though as it works by reducing your supply.

Have only skim read the thread and focused on your replies but it really does sound like silent reflux. My DC1 suffered terribly with it so you have my sympathy

Ranitadine worked well for us but he needed the maximum dosage and I had to keep having him weighed every two weeks and increase the dose as he put on weight otherwise the symptoms were returning.

Can I ask what dosage of ranitadine your baby is on? It might be that he's on too little for his weight especially if he's a big 'un.

I genuinely do not understand why people suggest formula. How does formula help?

Thanks everyone for making me see what seems so bloody obvious now. The reflux.

I thought we had it under control but I've mistaken an improvement for a cure and it clearly isn't cured.
I think because he is no longer screaming day and night like he was, I assumed it was all gone but it clearly hasn't. And of course he is lying flat at night so it will trigger it.
He often wakes with a hoarse voice as well so that must be the reflux too.

It's difficult to prop him up as we co-sleep.
I could prop up his mattress in his cot but he wouldn't sleep in it. I can't move him when he is asleep becusse he just wakes and screams. I guess that's because he's a very light sleep because of the reflux?

With regards to my let down, he has always broken off and SCREAMED when my letdown is triggered so I have a muslin to hand and hand express into that to calm it down. He may or may not go back on the breast after that, depending on how upset he has got. Feeding for him is not a nice event.

He can go up to 3mg per kg.

He's 7.7kg so can have up to 1.5mls.

He was on 0.8ml, I increased it about 4 days ago to 1.1ml and I could do all the way to 1.5ml.

(All three times a day).

I've given him a higher dose this morning and I think of age he a week that hasn't helped then I need to consider perhaps giving him a dose of gaviscon just before bed.