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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

For those who would never let a baby cry it out. What's mu next option?

241 replies

BoobiesToTheRescue · 24/03/2019 05:21

Bedtime at 6.30pm last night. He was exhausted and I couldn't make it much later by 11.15pm he had woken between 10-15 times, roughly every 15 minutes. The rest of the night was horrific. Nights have been mainly horrific most of his life.
He's 13 weeks breast feeding and I've eliminated all top allergy food groups for 2 months now.

He's breastfed and I've followed a routine by Little Ones so I know he's getting a near-as-damnit good amount of sleep during the day.
So I've tried:

-making very sure he's not over or under tired
-sleep cues, darkness, white noise, swaddle
-strict bath and bed wind down routine
-feeding to sleep (refuses to feed after a while)
-patting a shushing
-rocking to sleep
-cuddle to sleep
-buggy/car seat (the second the movement stops he's awake).
-co-sleeping
-own cot
-swing chair
-meds for reflux
-pain meds in case it was teething or other pain
-raising the mattress
-swaddle
-checked room temperature
-dry nappy

  • skin is good, no hair tourniquets
  • dummy (rejects)
  • clothes that smell like me
-muslin with my milk I've tried more besides these are just the obvious one

Last night I'd exhausted every avenue, he won't sleep on me so just getting up and sitting in the rocking chair with him doesn't work.
Eventually I lay next him him with him crying and he fell asleep.
Then he woke 2 mins later and cried again. So that doesn't even work.

This is absolute hell.

OP posts:
seven201 · 24/03/2019 08:42

I too think the silent reflux hasn't been solved. You need to keep trying different meds until you get the one that works for your baby. For my dd that was max dose ranitidine with max dose of omperazole (mups one). I kept asking for months and months if we could have omperazole and they only gave it to us when she was 8 months. Then she started sleeping and not being such a screamy thing. I am still pissed off at myself (for not being more insistent) and the gp's for my dd being in pain for 8 months when she didn't need to be! I know you said omeperazole didn't work, but they'll be other ones to try. Keep at it.

BertieBotts · 24/03/2019 08:44

TBH I think if you've tried all that and it doesn't work then crying based sleep training probably won't either. The idea of sleep training, much as I think it's bollocks, is that the baby is simply being denied attention, everything else is OK and so they will eventually sleep without it. It doesn't sound to me like your baby is lacking in attention.

But yeah why not in your situation I would probably try leaving him to it for a bit to see what happens. If he's crying anyway you need a break as much as anything. FWIW - you've probably been in some situations where he's crying for prolonged periods - whether he eventually exhausts himself and sleeps or whether he just ramps up and becomes hysterical will tell you whether sleep training would be likely to lead to sleep or distress.

I would try the "forbidden" things - sleepyhead, front sleeping, overdressing, underdressing. I always found the suggested bedroom temperature/clothing was far too cold for my two. But these seem like basic things TBF.

How does he sleep for naps? I'm guessing movement, which can't stop? What about some kind of vibration thing for his cot do you have a rampant rabbit.

Try formula. Why not at this point just see it as a medicine. FWIW I was anti formula for my first, second had some from birth as he was in SCBU without me - I very quickly got used to it and found it fine. He eventually rejected the bottle. You are in crisis at this point so I'd try it.

That's a point - there is actually a charity for parents struggling with excessive crying called Cry-sis. Their website doesn't look that helpful TBH but they have a helpline which might be? Just a listening, understanding ear. I also remember a friend struggling with horrendous similar baby crying and she found comfort in the description of a "duracell bunny baby". Her DS is now 8 and perfectly normal, bright, active, happy. Here's the description, in case it helps:
www.analyticalarmadillo.co.uk/2011/11/duracell-bunnyhigh-needsspirited-baby.html

There is also this description of sensory processing disorder, how that manifests in babies sometimes (I'm thinking of the sensory defensiveness description, not sensory seeking - sometimes babies find all of this too much and because they are so new everything is stimulating for them. FWIW this is not a sign of later special needs, it can be a standalone thing and simply a child who is later a little shy or preferring calm and quiet to noise and activity.) www.ot-mom-learning-activities.com/sensory-processing-disorder-in-babies.html

Good luck, and get someone to take him out for a couple of hours as often as you can, so you can get some sleep.

Haz1516 · 24/03/2019 08:46

With regards to my let down, he has always broken off and SCREAMED when my letdown is triggered so I have a muslin to hand and hand express into that to calm it down. He may or may not go back on the breast after that, depending on how upset he has got. Feeding for him is not a nice event.

This was my exact experience with let down. Baby is hungry but can't eat, or when he does eat ends up in pain from resulting wind/reflux.

As others have said, definitely look into a lactation consultant and try different feeding positions. The reflux is likely being caused by this.

Haz1516 · 24/03/2019 08:47

And try expressed milk in a bottle and see if it makes any difference.

CarpetGate · 24/03/2019 08:47

People are suggesting formula because BF is often a big part of the problem with reflux, and because children sleep better with formula (not a "myth", but scientifically proven).

ethelfleda · 24/03/2019 08:48

With regards to my let down, he has always broken off and SCREAMED when my letdown is triggered so I have a muslin to hand and hand express into that to calm it down. He may or may not go back on the breast after that, depending on how upset he has got. Feeding for him is not a nice event

OP this was my DS after every growth spurt. And honestly, block feeding worked a treat. Read about it on kellymom.

LoopyLoonyLuna · 24/03/2019 08:48

My first was like this and doctors diagnosed/guessed silent reflux. Nothing helped the screaming, she hated the car, the swing, the bouncy seat, the pushchair and screamed when put in a sling. She would only ever sleep on us. Gaviscon didn’t help and she was prescribed ranitidine and domperidone which helped a bit but doseage always needed to be adjusted on weight as she grew. They didn’t solve the issue though. And I was driven nearly mad by the lack of sleep and the screaming .

The only things that really worked were: time and weaning. We were recommended by doctor to start weaning early and began giving her small amounts of baby food at 17 weeks. Gradually she started sleeping better and crying less. She was also much happier once she could sit up and move around.

Get as much help as possible from family (I would regularly go to my mum’s for help).
And remember this won’t last forever! My dd is now a very happy little girl who sleeps solidly through the night!

medusawashere · 24/03/2019 08:48

OP, you have my sympathy and yes, you are right, it sounds like the reflux is still an issue. You honestly sound like a wonderful mother and it must be absolute torture for you.

I truly hope that this gets resolved for you and DS.

ethelfleda · 24/03/2019 08:50

That may be true carpet but the reason they sleep better is formula is more difficult for babies to digest. Bm is broken down more efficiently as it is designed for their immature digestive systems.
If baby is suffering from reflux, I can’t see how formula will make a difference any more than a higher dose of ranitidine and carrying on with breastfeeding.

Verynice · 24/03/2019 08:51

Personally I'm suggesting formula because A you've said he screams trying to feed due to your let-down and B you've suggested your milk may contain allergens.

You asked for advice, I'm giving what I consider to be good advice. If you don't like the advice, fine!

LoopyLoonyLuna · 24/03/2019 08:51

Oh yeah we also tried cranial osteopathy as she had a very difficult assisted delivery - it didn’t help at all.

babyworry2018 · 24/03/2019 08:53

Hi OP. We have had an almost identical situation, DD is 5 months now and we gave in and got a sleep consultant two weeks ago.

Her first step was to ask me to keep a diary of everything DD was doing, so times in the day she played, nappies, naps, how she fed, etc, and to keep a food diary for me. After a week she came back and said she thought there had to be a strong medical component based on how many times she vomited, and that my diet was pretty awful (as you'll know, so little sleep for months is hellish and we were relying on oven pizzas etc)

I cut out dairy and eggs completely and ate v traditional bland food- meat, potato, vegetables, soup, brown bread. After a week of that the vomiting was hugely reduced but not gone and the sleep was no better.

She came to see us to go through a proposed timetable, suggested timings for feeds and activities and naps and a plan for gradual withdrawal but no leaving her to cry. But after watching her she said that she had terrible silent reflux and nothing behavioural would work until we sorted it.

She doesn't scream and cry, she just doesn't really sleep for more than 40 min, an hour tops. I didn't notice back arching but the sleep consultant who has worked with children for thirty years did. She also said she was making little faces because of the acid taste. I increasingly don't think it's possible for children to have that little sleep so young without a medical issue.

For us, I think it's a combination of a food sensitivity and reflux. We're back to the GP this week. I have been recommended baby probiotics and some people I know have used osteopaths, not tried yet. I've cut out dairy soy and eggs from my diet. If all else fails I've been told when we wean her it will likely get better.

One thing I will say is that her daytime sleep is no better really- she'll only sleep in motion in the pram, being held in the sling by her daddy or sometimes in the car. I think the fact you're getting daytime sleep is a bit unusual. There might be something in that, but you're too tired to be expected to figure that out solo.

Also, as she got older it has got marginally better in the sense of getting the odd two hour sleep and her 24 sleep totals (I use an app to track all sleep) getting higher.

Don't sleep train, it won't work and will be distressing for you all. Everyone says it doesn't work till 6 months and to be honest, it just won't be behavioural/habit at that age.

I also have an oversupply but DD seems better at controlling it, that might be something to see a lactation consultant about it you haven't- I did block feeding and partially reclined feeding at it's worse and that helped.

I understand what it's like to have tried literally everything, I sat up at night downloading sleep books and nobody else's baby seemed to be as 'bad'. All I'll say is, it can be really hard to fix reflux, but what you're describing isn't normal and almost certainly is a baby in some form of discomfort and it's about trying to fix that, and in the meantime survive. Do you have a DP who can help? Is there anything that works at night?

We found one of us holding her upright or me feeding got us some nighttime sleep/quiet so we slept in turns. If you're just getting screaming that's so so hard. All I can say is do what you can to survive, and that if you can find someone v good with children and recommended like a sleep consultant who won't just try to cry it out they might have a new perspective. We were stumbling around trying and buying different things and so paying someone was mostly about getting oversight in our approach. Good luck though. We will all get through it one way or another.

DointItForTheKids · 24/03/2019 08:53

You've focused on the reflux which yes, may still be a problem.

But I think you're discounting the bfeeding issues that may be present. That 'feeding for him is not a nice event' should be a massive fed flag as being a huge part of the problem and you've had described to you the additional negative impacts it can have that can affect tummies and sleeping.

LoopyLoonyLuna · 24/03/2019 08:55

We did not try formula as I didn’t like the reasoning behind why it helped baby sleep better - it takes longer to digest in the baby’s stomach.
Because my dd screamed during breastfeeding I would pump and give her expressed milk as it was easier to feed this way - on the boob she would regularly pull off and scream and this made it very difficult to breastfeed (particularly if we were in public !)

TruffleShuffles · 24/03/2019 08:56

How much sleep is he getting in the day OP? Is he tired and wanting to have naps or are you getting him to sleep? My 3 month old doesn’t really sleep in the day at all, she may fall asleep for half and hour occasionally but it’s pretty rare. On the rare occasion she has had a good chunk of sleep in the day she will not sleep at night and like your little one is up constantly. Just wondering if he just isn’t a big sleeper and if he stays awake in the day will he sleep at night?

With the kicking thing I don’t think it’s the reflux as my daughter does it too, it drives me mad. She is also on ranitidine and it’s a different kick to the pain of reflux one and it’s a different cry that accompanies it, more of a whine than an in pain cry. Unfortunately we haven’t figured out yet why she does it.

Also ignore the people suggesting a formula feed as I succumbed to that pressure during a bad sleeping spell and it made her worse. I’m pretty sure it’s a myth that it helps them sleep longer and all it did to my daughter was give her the most horrific wind. Judging by the weight of your baby he’s getting more than enough and in my experience an EBF baby won’t take a full bottle anyway as they are not used to that volume from the breast.

All I can say is good luck OP and I sympathise. My daughter has spells like this and I haven’t figured out what gets her out of it.

BoobiesToTheRescue · 24/03/2019 08:56

Thank you.
He has a paediatrician appointment in April, I will run all this by her, particularly the domperidone and the weaning early.

We have a strong history of allergies so the weaning early does worry me.

Ironically it could be allergies which is causing this.

With regards to blockfeeding, I'm a pro at this. I make far too much milk with all my kids.
I no longer have an oversupply, this has been fixed for probably about 4 weeks now. He just really hates feeding and gets very upset with my letdown even on an 'empty' breast and a piddly let down.

Of course if the breast is fuller and the letdown forceful (and this does still happen) then all hell breaks lose.

With regards to my breastfeeding issues though it's the best it's been so far. We have overcome most of those problems but his reflux still persists (this is why I think allergies maybe?!).

It's a puzzle but I'm so bloody grateful for you all helping me see what the issue is. This has helped me so so much you have no idea.

OP posts:
DointItForTheKids · 24/03/2019 08:58

Verynice I know that many people advise 'oh just do a FF, that'll sort everything' - because it worked for them (wouldn't have worked for me, DS never took a bottle, never had a dummy so fat flippin' chance of formula feeding him!). But you're suggesting it as a way of ruling out that baby is actually still hungry (because he's just getting foremilk by the sounds of things which could be causing so many of his problems) - if he had a FF and slept for 3 hours you could say well, 1. he was hungry 2. it's not acid reflux keeping him awake.

I'm a big one for selecting acid reflux as it can be an absolute bugger, BUT, if the feeds are wrong this can lead to SO many problems and that side of things would be good for OP to explore more. I think anyway, obviously it is of course entirely up to OP but I think potentially she's discounting the significance of the feeding problems she's having and focusing a bit too much on the acid reflux. Has also not responded to points about the feeding which might have given us clues to further help with that side of things.

DointItForTheKids · 24/03/2019 08:59

x-post me thinks!

pandarific · 24/03/2019 08:59

You said you make a ridiculous amount of milk - it sounds like it could be oversupply leading to an imbalance of foremilk/hindmilk?

Does this ring any bells? https://www.laleche.org.uk/too-much-milk-and-oversupply/

BertieBotts · 24/03/2019 09:01

I dunno how formula would help TBH, I'd just try it because it sounds horrendous and I'd give anything a go. (xposted and just saw your PP)

Also I suppose because it's unlikely but there's a slim possibility there might be ineffective milk transfer so he's really hungry all the time - but seems highly unlikely considering he's gaining weight.

BoobiesToTheRescue · 24/03/2019 09:02

I don't mind the FF suggestion. I just didn't know how it would help. I've never FF a child. I've also never had one with reflux this bad so it's new to me. But you're very defensive about the FF suggestion?

babyworry2018 you're us but 2 months in the future. I originally said that day time sleep is better but actually it isn't. It's exactly the same but I just don't stress out about it because I'm awake and not trying to sleep. He can sleep for 30 mins before waking, then I have to resettle him and this can take a while.

Did you feel like you had wasted the money on the sleep consultant? Because they didn't actually get the baby to sleep?

I'm on a very bland diet indeed, chicken and vegetables/fruit/salad.
No wheat, eggs soya, dairy etc

It's been like that for a while and I believe this has helped the allergy rash that he had. But doesn't seem to have helped his reflux as much as I thought.

OP posts:
Verynice · 24/03/2019 09:06

I really don't get it to be honest. A lot of things point to feeding issues/supply/latch/allergens in the milk.

I'm failing to understand why anyone wouldn't try an alternative form of feeding. If I had felt at any time that my feeding was in fact making my baby uncomfortable, I'd have switched to formula immediately. Or at least tried it out. Surely the point of feeding the baby is to nourish it and keep it happy and healthy. If it's crying, possibly in pain, dislikes feeding, well, for me it's a no-brainer.
Maybe other people who are strongly pro-breastfeeding feel differently, but I was never strongly that way inclined so I don't really understand where some of you are coming from.

BertieBotts · 24/03/2019 09:07

New research seems to suggest early waening (at 4 months rather than 3) is beneficial/protective in terms of allergies - surprised me as it was different with DS1, it was such a huge no no to give them the tiniest lick of anything before 6 months. But now at least in Germany and the US many doctors are strongly suggesting to start from 4 months especially family history allergens. My gut feeling is the UK recommendations stick at 6 months because the UK has such a strong culture of weaning before 4 months that to recommend 4 months would put many more babies at risk of parents saying "Oh well he's nearly 4 months" and giving in to their parents' generations' insistence the baby is "hungry", than it would hurt babies with high allergy risk to wait until 6 months rather than introducing earlier in a supervised/planned way.

foxfox · 24/03/2019 09:07

I've nothing to add with the allergies / reflux I'm afraid. Just in your OP you said when the movement of the buggy stops, he wakes up. Could you try this to keep that movement going and give you a tiny bit longer

Rockit portable baby rocker. Fits any stroller, pram, pushchair or buggy https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B076KP7HKW/ref=cmswwrcppapiii_IF0LCbVGD5KBP

I hope it gets better for you both soon!

sunday38 · 24/03/2019 09:08

I'd increase ranitadine to 1.5mls X3 per day if that is the correct maximum dosage for his weight. My HV was very helpful with calculating dosages etc. A change of 0.1ml made the difference between my DC's symptoms being under control or not! Might take a week or so to become effective but at least if it doesn't work then you know for sure to try something else.

Sounds like you have some other issues with possible allergies so l hope your appointment with paeds helps.