To think this isn't neglect?

[twentytimes]

3 children aged 11,5 and 4. Eldest is sometimes left alone with the little two for several hours and is on her own once a week from after school until midnight. 4 and 5 year olds have on a few occasions been left alone for up to half an hour. They have mums number and know how/who to contact if something goes wrong, nothing ever has though.

Little two are never put to bed because they don't want to. Most nights they eventually fall asleep on the sofa whilst watching tv and are either left there or carried up to bed. They're allowed to watch whatever they want, 5 year old is easily scared so doesn't but both the 4 and 11 year olds will watch adult rated films or tv programmes.

They do what they like with their appearance as long as they aren't in school or it doesn't break school rules and are overall just given a lot more trust and freedom than most children their ages. They aren't spoilt with material things and are told no but if they want to go somewhere or start a new club for example they are almost always allowed. They don't have many rules at home but are expected to follow other peoples rules and are disciplined if they break them or are rude

They are all very happy and confident children, very polite and not badly behaved. Their Mum really loves and supports them. None of them complain or are upset by any of the things I mentioned, if they ever were then Mum would change her parenting.

I know this probably isn't the best example of parenting and If I ever have children I wouldn't do the exact same but AIBU to think its just a different parenting style rather than neglect and that I don't have a moral obligation to report any of this?

That is neglect, and as for your comment „they are not put to bed because they dont want to....“ what is that all about? Children the world over don’t want to be put to bed, still no reason. Letting children (regularly) fall asleep in front of the telly (which is showing what exactly?...probably not cbeebies...) is very worrying, and the poor 11 year old.

She is that bad actually. And by not informing social services you're being pretty awful yourself.

This is horrifyingly neglectful! The 11 year old alone for a couple of hours? Fine. Until midnight? No.

4 and 5 year olds would not reliably know what to do in a fire. Far too young to be left alone, phone number or not.

Kids need boundaries and bed time. They must be exhausted!

This is all awful.

It's unfair on the 11 year old who is entitled to a childhood too. Saying that there are children younger than 11 who are primary carers for disabled parents and whose childhoods are also limited.

Poor neglected children left alone to midnight. Call nspcc get their take on it. Police would say it is neglect

I posted before reading fully.
OP, these children certainly wouldn't be removed!

But there is lots of support out there these days that your mum would find useful! It sounds like she is working really, really hard to provide for the children and that's a huge positive.

Don't let people here scare you, things have to be a hell of a lot worse than this before a child would be removed... a lot worse! She does need to stop leaving them alone though, that really isn't ok.

Message me if you'd like some more support on where to go next. X

I think it's really bad letting young kids watch adult TV. There is a watershed for a reason - 9pm i think. There is some really disturbing stuff on after that that could traumatise children. Why not just get them in bed?

I was raised much more questionably than my siblings are being which is I guess why I'm finding hard to know this is wrong because I ended up fine anyway.

Sweetie, you didn’t end up fine. If you were “fine” you would not be doubting yourself and trying to defend your Mother’s shocking neglect of her little children.

No 11 year old child should be “parentified” and made to be responsible for their younger siblings’ basic needs; not just childcare, bedtime and hygiene but emotional attention, boundaries and nurturing. That is the parent’s role.

Your Mum is failing her young children and failing them dreadfully. It doesn’t sound as if she has appropriate risk aversion so is either not capable of thinking through the possible risks and long term effects of her (non) parenting - or she just doesn’t care. Either is unacceptable.

I understand that it’s difficult for you to see clearly whether this is neglect and if it needs reporting but take it from us that YES, it is. Your Mum is failing to provide at least 3 of a child’s basic needs (Basic Physical Care, Security, Guidance and Control). If you don’t feel able to speak to SS, have you thought about speaking to the NSPCC?

I think it is neglect.

It's not fair to leave an 11yo in charge of younger siblings. I know it was common in the past, but things change for the better. What if something were to go wrong? Also the 11yo is only a child themselves and should be behaving as sister, not having to take charge of them. For eg I imagine if they were alone and younger two were fighting, or youngest had a toileting accident, or was very scared by a TV show, I expect she would be expected to take charge. And that isn't ok.

Not just thatz but the pressure and responsibility. She might feel that as she's been left in charge, she is responsible for her siblings and their well-being. It's a lot of responsibility for someone only young themselves. Leaving for 10mins or so is ok at s push. No longer, I'd say.

It sounds like the 11yo is alone a lot. Home from after school club and sometimes left until midnight? Sorry but that's just wrong. Obviously parents work and it's perfectly normal for year 7 children to let themselves in, make a sandwich and do homework etc until their parents come in. But not to have to sort their own dinner, sort themselves for the morning, get themselves to bed etc. It must be very lonely and quite sad.

As for the little ones being left alone, that's really not right. At least with an 11yo they have someone who is a bit more responsible although that isn't ideal either. How can a 4 and 5yo look after each other? You say they can contact mum in an emergency. I imagine if someone injured themselves or there was a fire or similar, such a young child would be likely to panic.

The bedtime thing. I'm torn as my parents let me do that. They'd let me drop off on the settee then carry me up. I'd have a proper bath routine etc though, and it was only until about 4. Was born premature and mam was, still is, extremely nervous and protective.

That said I wouldn't do it with my old children. I think a routine is best, though this isn't the worst thing on the list by far.

The TV is a different story. The 11yo watching adult programmes is bad enough, let alone the 4yo. There could be horrible themes in there - violence, death, horror films, terrorism etc. That can be enough to frighten a 11yo and cause nightmares never mind the younger one. Not fair for the 5yo to have that on I'd she doesn't like it, either.

Re appearance. Do you mean they can choose their socks and what kind of shoes they want to wear? As that's fine. If you mean they're not required to have their hair brushed if they don't want, or are allowed to wear a skirt with socks and not tights or trousers in December, or are allowed to not wear a coat when it's tipping down outside, then that's different and yes it is neglect. It depends really.

As for moral obligation. Well it's your choice of course and I doubt SS would consider it a crucial case. But they could provide support or advice. From the sound of it, the person doing this is perhaps doing things that were commonplace years ago, for eg leaving children alone til late and older siblings in charge. Times have changed, were now more careful, that does sometimes swing too far the other way, but ultimately it's safer. It's definitely not ok to be leaving the children. And it's definitely not ok to watch adult shows. Google some statistics. It's been proven j think that children or young teenagers who watch or play violent shows and games, are more likely to become violent themselves, and it can cause behavioural problems and have an effect on MH.

Nor saying ban all adult shows (eg titanic for 11yo is probably ok) but certainly a good idea to know the show they're watching and decide it's suitability. What's ok for an 11yo isn't for a 4yo

It is neglect - I have absolutely NO doubts.

I also doubt your mum will pay any attention whatsoever to you. Nothing will change, and your siblings will carry on being neglected. It only takes one time for something bad to happen, and one of them to get badly hurt.

I think you need to report the neglect so your siblings get the childhood they deserve, and your mum gets the proper help and advice she clearly needs.

Please, do this ASAP. Don’t leave it and hope for the best - you’d never forgive yourself if one of them was hurt.

I think they have mostly only been left for a few minutes but has been nealry half an hour once or twice.

It takes seconds to be electrocuted, minutes to choke-what if they fall downstairs?

Its a friday night so she stays up untill mum gets back at midnight and then they go to bed, I assumed 11 was an acceptable age for this but maybe I have really messed up judgement

I know plenty of 15 year olds that don’t stay up until midnight.

I accept that there are serious issues I need to help sort out but she really isn't that terrible.

Well she is really, by not ensuring they are getting the correct amount of sleep for their age they are at risk of having long term problems.

I was raised much more questionably than my siblings are being which is I guess why I'm finding hard to know this is wrong because I ended up fine anyway.

Through luck, despite her parenting. Your siblings may not be so lucky. Get them help.

Op you know in your heart that the situation is concerning. It is neglect. The fact that the children are clean and fed is one thing but there is so much else wrong with this situation. It is a safeguarding issue and probably needs interventional support to resolve it. Your mum seems to have misjudged appropriate boundaries to keep her children safe, from both a potential physical and emotionally supportive point of view. If she doesn't see that after you talk to her, then you need to make a referral for professional help via the social care team.

What has made you question it suddenly? It sounds really lonely not to mention neglectful. I hope it gets sorted out and the chat with your mum goes well x

It's neglectful
I leave my 10 year old at home for up to 15 mins when I drop her home and collect her brother from school or if I drop him off Beavers. I wouldn't leave her to look after him though and I certainly wouldn't leave her to decide if she did or didn't want to look after them
I wouldn't and couldn't leave a child so young til midnight on her own

Your mum needs a sitter or a different job that means she's supporting her children's welfare

I'm sorry OP but this is neglect. It's hard for you to see that because it's your mum and that clouds things for you. I get that you feel that your upbringing didn't cause you harm but it sounds like you were also neglected. The oldest child is far too young to be left for that length of time and the younger two shouldn't be left at all at their age either on their own or in their sibling's care.

If something happened and one of the younger children was hurt, that would be an awful burden for the 11yr old to bear.

Why on earth has this woman kept having kids? 4 kids over what 20 years? She's not a parent she's just someone that lives in the same house.

The 11 year old is left alone in the house until midnight? And doesnt go to bed until then? And you think that isn't neglectful parenting??

Also OP (and I say this extremely gently) but the fact that you're thinking this kind of behaviour isn't awful, shows that your views on neglect are a big skewed. It's not your fault, and I'm not suggesting in any way that you'd do this with your old children, not at all - but the way you were raised has left its mark on you in that you don't necessarily see what others do about this situation. You're right in. That they're fed etc. And as I said they're not going to be a priority for SS. Buy at the least your mum needs some support and education..

I'm really sorry OP - it seems that it's affected you more than you might have thought

Where’s their dad? And what is the mum doing until midnight when the kids are left alone?

It’s incredibly dangerous to leave kids that young alone.

OP the fact that you asked the question suggests you know this isn't right. I would imagine your judgement is quite clouded from your own childhood experiences. I doubt SS would be tak the children from your Mum but she would be given support and guidance. Although Im sure it would be very difficult for you to report your concerns you really should. What if something happened to the little ones whilst she was out.

I'd say unfortunately yes.

If I was to guess I'd assume Mum is a lazy parent who also wants to be friends with her children which as an adult is fair enough, but when a child they need a mentor, a guardian.

The 11 year old may not realise it but some of the stuff they see on TV may really impact them.

I'd say leaving the 11 year old on their own for an hour or so would be OK if they were alone, but not with younger siblings.

Leaving any under 8 alone for any more than 5/10 minutes is dangerous. In a panic they will not think to call Mum or they will instead of leaving the house.

Honestly, I'm respectful of others parenting choices. Let your 13 year old watch South Park or the equivalent today - that's up to you.

Let your 8 year old stay up to 10? Unwise, but it's up to you.

But some of this mother's choices could be actually harming her children. If I knew I'd consider reporting. But I think if the Mum seems nice but clueless I'd talk to her first if we were close.

Leaving 4 and 5 year olds alone is neglect. Leaving them with an 11 year old probably is too, or at the very least incredibly unfair on the 11yo in loco parentis. That's still primary age!

It IS neglectful and given what you say about the children "never complaining" I'd suspect that's either not true or there's been worrying consequences if they did that have deterred them from doing so again.

This is NOT a healthy or supportive environment and frankly you should be reporting to the appropriate services.

"The 11 year old isn't expected to look after her sibling's" yes she is. She shouldn't even be asked at this age it's far too much responsibility.

If you're not talking about your own parenting then I think it's also entirely possible this isn't even the worst of it! How "secure" the home is irrelevant, there are other dangers than "stranger abduction" which is incredibly rare anyway. This set up makes them more vulnerable to those who ARE likely to take advantage as they will know the family and have their trust but also know there's little to no adult supervision, plus there's the other dangers of fire, broken glass, falls etc which an 11 year old is nowhere near mature enough to deal with the responsibility of. I don't doubt the 11 year old could follow the right actions, but any accidents that happen, particularly any that lead to lifelong consequences they would likely forever blame themselves that's a horrifically huge burden to place on a pre teen that could potentially wreck their mh long term.

Having an adult present isn't just about the children's physical safety, it's emotional reassurance and supporting their emotional development. Who is listening to their worried before they fall asleep? Are they eating properly? Are their hygiene needs being properly met? I highly doubt it under this set up!

This is your mum and siblings you're talking about? Honestly? I'd tell mum to cut this crap out or you WILL be reporting her and mean it. That's what I'd do.

"What would they do? From peoples reactions its sounds like they would be immediatly removed from her." That's actually unlikely. Particularly with the cuts (it's very expensive to provide care for children) plus their aim is to keep families SAFELY together. Sadly even pretty horrific cases of blatant abuse don't even always result in removal of children.

Instead (and I'm not an expert) they'll likely be assigned a case worker who will talk to mum about what IS acceptable parenting, help to access resources to achieve this possibly including community connections, parenting classes, mh support, financial support if needed (they'll help her make sure she's getting all help she's eligible for and possibly help from certain charities if it's deemed necessary), perhaps counselling for the children, I'd have thought particularly the 11 year old...

But as I say I'm not an expert. I'm just a single mum who's had serious mh issues which have meant when dd was very little it was felt a good idea to give us support as a family from SS. My experiences were very positive, even though I had dreaded it.

"Kids are always properly fed and washed" by whom?

"All doing well at school, mum always helps with homework and has intervened when there has been any issues." Guessing this is based on what your mum has told you? Because the school won't be speaking to you.

And yes it is pretty terrible, you're just too close to see otherwise particularly if your childhood was even worse. And I speak as someone who had a pretty shit childhood themselves.

How is the 11 year old getting home from the after school club?

In what way was your childhood worse that you think isn't happening now? And why do you think it's not happening?

"This makes me especially sad. It’s well behaved kids that are often ones to watch, they don’t feel safe enough to express themselves" this was me and my siblings. We got teased/bullied for being "goody two shoes" but it was both self preservation and protecting mum, cos if we'd been naughty at school or with anyone likely to say anything to dad that would have risked our safety and pretty much guaranteed mum another belting! So we were quiet, well behaved, hard working students (woe betide we got less than a "b" for effort on school reports).

REALLY happy confident children WILL play up on occasion. They feel safe to do so.

Op please support your siblings to be better cared for.