To think the only viable Brexit option now is to revoke A50

[Bearbehind]

Theresa Mays speech last night was a disgrace and will only have hardened MP’s positions - there’s no way her WA will get voted through, even if another vote is allowed.

There is no appetite for No Deal from anyone who understands its consequences so that just leaves revoke.

TM has been the master of saying one thing and doing the complete opposite.

I’m now convinced she’s going to revoke and resign.

Or is that just wishful thinking?

Now you sound even more silly and desperate. Remember Dennis Healey’s famous observation about what to do when you are in a hole.

There are no winners due to Brexit - everyone is a major looser. I still can’t decide who I blame the most - the leave voters or the politicians.

Germany is sliding into recession.
In France, the Gilets Jaunes are protesting, and the Far Right is a serious threat.
The Italian budget, which included a Minimum Wage for its millions of unemployed, was rejected by the EU powers-that-be.
There are many millions unemployed in Greece.
In many EU countries it would be the younger generation voting to leave, if given the chance.
The threat of the Far Right resurgence in several EU countries cannot be denied.
Remainers, please explain to me why you are so desperate to stay in (and be a nett economic contributor to) such a toxic institution, because I genuinely do not understand.

Now you sound even more silly and desperate.

Well, obviously I am exaggerating a little - but why wouldn't 1 million or 2 million EU citizens living in the UK sign the petition? Can you think of any reasons why they wouldn't sign it?

because I genuinely do not understand

Me neither. How a wealthy person or a wealthy country thinks they will be better off by joining forces with a less wealthy person or a less wealthy country is beyond me.

@oldenoughtoknow - the right to trade in a market of 500million people across 28 countries for starters plus free movement of people, jobs, stable economy, red tape, Erasmus. I could go on and on.

Remainers, please explain to me why you are so desperate to stay in (and be a nett economic contributor to) such a toxic institution, because I genuinely do not understand.

Because leaving will exacerbate these problems and will in return cause even more for us.

When your neighbours shed burns you don't sit there fanning the flames, you have to put them out before your house burns down.

“If leavers have not changed their minds what difference does it make?”

Won’t make any difference at all. So no worries about having a people’s vote then .......

Parker123 - the "blame" for this current situation lies fairly and squarely with all those politicians who 2 years ago triggered Article 50 when they didn't want to leave the EU at all. They should have had the balls then to stand up and have all the arguments that are being had now so that things could be discussed properly before we set the process in motion. Too many politicians - on both sides - looked at their own careers and their own seats which had voted to leave and went with it because they didn't want to be deselected or voted out a general election. They couldn't have given a shiny shit about the country at this point.

What we have seen is that "the will of the people" actually means nothing. its the will of the MP to keep hold of their seat at all costs that's the important factor in all of this.

I agree with you oldenoughtoknow. The EU has some massive problems coming. the post 2020 plans for farming subsidies and 25% cuts to funding are really going to hit some net receivers very very hard. The EU27 can see the shitstorm coming. Calls for even more integration are to protect the French and Germans from it. And the devolution of funding decisions to Member states is going to a disaster.

“Remainers, please explain to me why you are so desperate to stay in (and be a nett economic contributor to) such a toxic institution, because I genuinely do not understand.”

Because the alternative is infinitely worse. Can you paint a quick word picture of how you see the UK in 5 years time if we crash out?

Yes there are problems in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece. But that's not new, there always have been and we were doing fine despite the issues within those countries that have existed for a long time.

So that's not a valid reason for leaving the EU.

The net contributor is half the story and simply one example of half truths told by politicians.

The bald truth is we take out much more than we put in due to the trade deals and customs agreements, we literally pay in a penny to take out a pound. The numbers equate to costing each household 3000 per year.

So the net contributor is simply based on what we pay in, and what subsidies we take out. If you factor in how much we financially benefit from thr trade deals and lack of customs duty, then the cost to us is huge If we leave and makes the 39 billion look like pocket money.

Right now the leavers are screaming to take their penny back. Not understanding it will cost them a pound to do so.

We are a wealthy country, in large part due to being part of the EU and benefitting from access to their huge market and favourable trade terms.

We no longer have an empire to generate our wealth but as the empire faded we replaced that with the EU.

Now we are planning on leaving the EU and nor do we have our empire.

Anyone that thinks that is a recipe for future prosperity and wealth is quite frankly at best completely stupid or at worst insane.

Thr other half truth is the trading on wto.

Yes we can do this. Yes many countries do. But we would be the only country in the whole world to only trade on these terms. Every single other country has supplementary deals where it matters. And they have these for a reason. The wto terms are the bare minimum and financially damaging, they are simply a default to allow us to trade, that's all.

So the half truths is what's causing some of the confusion. And why anyone who understands the impacts wishes to stay.

There are indeed problems in Europe especially in relation to the rise of the far right. This being the case it is exactly the wrong time to run away.

Isolationism does not work. Attempting to separate ourselves from political issues in Europe does not work.

Pointing at problems in Europe and saying "run away" does not work.

History shows us time and again we need to work with our European allies and not against them. We are stronger together. We stand more chance of beating down the rise of the right together.

Isolationism. Does. Not. Work.

please explain to me why you are so desperate to stay in (and be a nett economic contributor to) such a toxic institution

Well let’s see what our alternatives are in terms of international allies, shall we?

US? Increasingly insular and protectionist.

Russia/China? Becoming increasingly powerful and influential. Definitely not on our side. We need allies against them.

France and Germany look like reasonable allies in those circumstances, don’t you think?

Because the alternative is infinitely worse. Bertrand this is your opinion. Its not a fact. I know what Europe is hoping to look like in 5 years time with ever closer integration and reduced funding/increased contributions from net contributors, no veto etc and I don't want to be a part of that.

dimsum321 - have a look at some of the documents about closer integration, reduced and devolved funding, removal of veto, loss of individually sovereignty for member states. they are all on the EU's websites as roadmap discussions. Yes, big problems have existed but if you cut farming subsidies to Greece by 25% don't you think that is going to have a massive effect and could tip them over the edge?

And all these leavers going on about wto terms, have they even read the terms? Do they know what they mean in practice?

I doubt it very much. Most leavers ime just blindly and ignorantly regurgitate whatever nonsense they have been fed by Rees Mogg and Farage et al without having the slightest clue what they are actually talking about. This always becomes apparent when they are asked for details.

Eg which EU laws have we had to implement which are bad for us? The only answer I've ever heard to that is "I don't know but there definitely are some."

And they seem to be completely ignorant about all the consumer and employment rights and protections we have implemented that directly benefit them which we would never have implemented ourselves under a tory govt.

They don't like being called idiots but the fact is they are.

If Greece is 'tipped over the edge' do you want to help them or ignore them?

If Greece does descend into chaos and even more economic problems aren't you worried that will have a domino effect all over the Balkans?

If this disaster does happen do you think us not being in the EU will isolate us from the consequences?

We will not be isolated from the issues but we will not be able to work with others to help. We can watch it happen from the sidelines and hope we won't get dragged in. But we will get involved because these are are close neighbours and allies.

Running away is the worst thing we can do. We need to stay and fight and influence and help our neighbours during difficult times.

windows - if we decide to stay in our influence has already been diminished. you are fooling yourself if you thought we ever actually had any in the first place.

dimsum321 - don't call me an idiot, please. I couldn't give a shiny shit what Rees Mogg or anyone else thinks. I read and make my own decisions thanks. Calling people idiots doesn't actually help the situation and really I am going to ignore all your future points now because you have called me an idiot when you have absolutely not a clue what my knowledge, experience, job or anything else is. All you are doing is fanning the flames of the ultra right - well done on that.

So mummy who do think we should try to ally with when we break free from the EU?

We have a veto, a rebate, we are not in Schengen or the Euro.

This is evidence of our influence. I'm not fooling myself because I can look at facts not rhetoric. We didn't always get everything we wanted but we have several significant concessions. This is evidence of our influence.

And yes our influence is diminished because of this fiasco we need to stay and fight and build it up again. Running away helps no one.

@mummymeister

Which EU laws have we implemented have been detrimental to us?

Please list at least 5.

What precisely are wto terms?

Please provide a summary and analysis.

Thank you.

• "that we have implemented"

We have a veto, a rebate, we are not in Schengen or the Euro.

Yes, all of this.

And it was out governments who chose to let immigrants in, Blair, Brown and Cameron because big companies wanted it, and that was one of the big triggers for the Leave vote.

The EU is not perfect, by all means, but let's not blame it for our decisions.