To think this absolutely is homophobic

[HuntIdeas]

Muslim families have successfully argued for Birmingham primary schools to stop the No Outsiders programme

"Morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have. It's not about being homophobic... that's like saying, if you don't believe in Islam, you're Islamophobic."

AIBU to think:

1. This absolutely is a homophobic thing to say
2. There are plenty of places in the world where you would get stoned for stating you didn’t believe in Islam!

Hopefully this link works: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47613578

I don’t know the materials, so cannot comment except generally. The thought of others teaching my children anything about sex/trans/gay before about 10 is uncomfortable. My children are very immature and still watches cartoons (oldest 20). Some kids seems much more advanced, they may need more.

We have two gay parents in a DCs class, lovely people and a natural part of the class. Our only discussion so far, “yes” X has two mums, families are different. That is enough for my 6 year old, it is just a part of life. Should he want to know more, I am happy to talk to him - and believe me he will ask if he is curious.

Sometimes we get comments like “boys are like this” or “girls are like that”. We always say, we’ll some boys /girls are like that

I am not sure we need to force a certain curriculum on very young children, but again, the materials may be very innocent in which case I wouldn’t mind.

It's a commonly held belief in several religions. We can't police what people think or what they teach their children, but we can ensure that the opposing view is represented in schools

This. It’s not just Muslims who believe this. Although I’m sure plenty of Muslims and other religions that oppose this have more relaxed attitude to it.

I don’t mind the discussing of homosexuality, we have gay family members and friends it really is just life and it would be incredibly helpful for young children to understand how other people feel especially in a school setting.

My only issue is what they would be discussing for the T and who would be advising on the material that was delivered to the children

We need schools to support our gay and lesbian youth, especially if they don't have family support

The push of the trans agenda is muddying the waters, and taking support away from LGB

100%

Which class does this fall under?

Is it sex ed or some kind of nebulous wellbeing class (called PSHE at my kids' school)?

I totally agree that the trans agenda is a bit of a nightmare for the LGB kids.

Agree with posters above who recognise there is more to this. The Indian subcontinent has a well established third gender ‘ hijras’ who are tolerated but nevertheless marginalised.The insistence of lumping autogynaephilic Ts with LGB is I suspect the root cause of the current furore.
The trans agenda has no place in primary schools. What are the next steps, transrace, transage?
Whether posters like it or not, the state should not override parental consent about what is taught to their children.

As pointed out by a previous poster, the No Outsiders programme was written by Andrew Moffat, who is the deputy head of the school in Birmingham. I just find it very strange that, knowing there is a predominantly Muslim in take at the school and that some (not all) Muslims feel homosexuality is wrong, the school didn't get the parents on board first. Apparently they are now 'having consultations with parents about the curriculum' A bit late really?

Our DS's primary school invite all year 5 parents to come to a lesson about the sex education year 5 and 6 children are having. They show the main video, put out all the resources, the teachers involved have general and more confidential chats with the parents and the kids can be pulled out of the lessons if the parents choose. Apparently with No Outsiders it seems compulsory for children to attend. My DS's school were only going into puberty, periods, changes in the body, developing relationships and they got the parents on board. They do this every year. But generally the school promote the idea that people can love people of the same sex, that people being different (whether that's because of sex, religion, race or whatever) is a good thing. My DS has a heart condition and, after he went into hospital a while ago for a procedure, he asked the teacher if he could tell the class about the MRI that he had done and show the class his heart scan. Absolutely fine. It explained why he is 'different' - why he can't run as fast as the others. They celebrate the differences.

Personally I think the parents at the school are wrong but I also feel the school needs to share some blame IF they didn't open the programme up to the parents in the first place, IF they didn't listen to the issues and try to work with parents and IF Andrew Moffatt decided to pilot that project in a predominantly Muslim school because it was a predominantly Muslim school (given that he left his last job because he had a very serious problem with Christian parents - seems to be a theme going on which is a little worrying unless it's a coincidence...)

From our family point of view our DS doesn't see a difference in people - my DSis's brother in law had a civil partnership ceremony with his husband and through our church (yes we do go to church regularly) we have a very good friend who is transgender. But I do feel the school (by mistake or design) missed a trick if they didn't have an open evening for the parents to show them what is being said and how. First rule of teaching - get the parents on side.

There is a list of books used by one school, and a set of sample pages available.
Given the EA pertains to religion and race, there's a lack of books on those characteristics, and nothing I can see on sex role stereotyping.
So it seems AFAICS to be restricted to LGBT and general aspects of discrimination. So it's not on the EA as a whole.
What would help is communication with all shades of religious belief and parents not being blindsided.

@LondonJax I met Andrew a few years ago and I’m 99% sure there was consultation with parents at the very start. I remember him saying there were some who had fears but were reassured when he explained the content. He’s been teaching these lessons for years now without fuss. I feel so intensely sorry for him.

There's more to this than meets the eye.

Are you aware, the assistant head at the centre of this row, wrote (and stands to benefit financially from) the materials?

Is he really interested in promoting tolerance and inclusion in his school, or in using his school to promote his program?

That may all be the case, but the argument made by the parents (or possible just the most vocal protesters) doesn't seem to have been one about a conflict of interests or 'more sensitive ways to go about this'.

"Fundamentally the issue we have with No Outsiders is that it is changing our children's moral position on family values on sexuality and we are a traditional community.
Morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have. It's not about being homophobic... that's like saying, if you don't believe in Islam, you're Islamophobic."

Looks like a pretty clear cut (and ridiculously badly argued) case of bigotry to me rather than anything more nuanced.

I also don't think it's massively helpful to support this position just because posters feel the materials may contain (do they?) inappropriate messages about transgender issues. If the T part of the materials is problematic, make your own argument, preferably based on science and reason, rather than share a platform with religious fundamentalists (wether Muslim or Christian).

How can you not see that actions like this absolutely do contribute to community relationship breakdown?
Is it not ok to throw gay rights under the bus for the sake of community cohesiveness.
If you think being gay is wrong, no problem, don’t be gay but don’t deny gay people the right to exist as equal members of society.
Homosexuality is not a disease. It’s not something you can be exposed to or be infected by.
These lessons are teaching that some men love men and some women love women it’s not a 10 step guide to fisting. If that’s too radical for you then your views are repellent.

Yossarian22
I know MN loves lumping everything under the trans banner but it is very much the L and G but the parents are protesting.

Gamer
The T link is important- look into Hijras in the Indian subcontinent.
Educate yourself.

Yep 100% homophobic.

The T link is important- look into Hijras in the Indian subcontinent.
Educate yourself.
No thank you. What happens on the Indian subcontinent can stay there. They are free to practice their briefs as they choose as is everyone else as long as they don’t step on other people’s rights.

beliefs although they can choose what briefs they like too.

It's the result of the blurred lines between home and school. For blinking ages schools have been taking over the parental role, teaching children about manners, about sex, relationships, safety, media/internet safety, mental health, religion etc etc the list goes on.

In a bygone age parents would have taught their children those things, and there would be no need for the school to be involved at all. Now though, responsibility is abdicated to the school, (not necessarily from all parents butt imposed by government to solve all society's ills), and parents complain because surprisingly school can't teach 1000 children exactly what their parents think.

In a bygone age parents would have taught their children those things, and there would be no need for the school to be involved at all.

In a bygone era parents would have taught their children bigotry towards homosexuals and the failure of society to address this via education should be a source of shame, not something to aspire to.

I love it how some of the posters make it seem like it's only Islam that disapprove of homosexuality. Should I copy and paste what Judaism and Christianity state about Homosexuality ?

ALL Abrahamic religions are homophobic.

Gamer.
So you admit you’re commenting on an issue you have no interest in trying to understand 😂
The state via the education system has no right to interfere in their rights as parents. Or are people’s rights just a one way street? Bollocks to that.

I don’t think it is homophobia. I live not too far from the school, most of the interviews I’ve seen are based round parents saying they have no issues with gay people but think it is inappropriate to teach about sexuality to young children. The head has obviously chosen this school to maximise the effect of his campaign by picking out somewhere where his methods will cause controversy.

None of the interviewed parents have shown any hatred towards gay people. They are entitled to their views so long as it doesn’t cause harm, expressing their views is no more hate filled than people causing issues having a go at Muslims to sticking by their beliefs.

I’m fed with the pseudo liberalism saying you can believe anything as long as it’s what is deemed acceptable today.

In a very general way, it is important for schools to challenge some of the teaching DC get at home, because some children are being taught dangerous, harmful bullshit at home. In earlier rounds of anti-sex-ed campaigning, it was noted that one reason for parents to be insistent that their DC were kept out of sex ed was that some parents really didn't want their kids taught that it's OK to say no to a parent who is sexually abusing you. There were (and still will be) some who don't want their little DC given the correct words to describe abuse being perpetrated against them.
And some kids are being brought up by racists, so they will grow up with racist views unless and until they are exposed to other views.

I think there is some possibility that some of the people promoting this sex ed are looking for a fight, though. And it may well be that the whole business is being stirred up by those who dislike both Muslims and sexual diversity, with the aim being to clamp down on both sides in the long run (just like a lot of the stirring around trans issues is being framed in a way that pits feminists against trans people so that they fight with each other rather than challenging straight men's dominance... and the way poor people are encouraged to blame foreigners/the disabled/even poorer people for their own difficulties rather than challenging the rich corporations and authorities who are siphoning off all the money.)

Yossarian22
The proposed teaching is about the Equalities Act in the UK and everyone’s responsibilities under the law to treat people fairly.
What is believed in other countries while culturally interesting and useful with regards to context for other viewpoints does not make those viewpoints any more valid.
You do not need to understand the objections to know they are contrary to equalities laws.
I have no time for your straw man argument.

they are entitled to their views so long as it doesn’t cause harm
Telling gay people they’re too abnormal for children to hear about is harmful. Comparing homosexuality to a disease you can be exposed to is harmful. If you want to be a bigot do it in the privacy of your own home and stop flaunting your lifestyle choices at us.

ReanimantedSGB
That's a really interesting post. I hadn't considered that aspect of sex education, but it makes perfect sense.
Agree that these arguments are a good way of distracting attention...