To think this absolutely is homophobic

[HuntIdeas]

Muslim families have successfully argued for Birmingham primary schools to stop the No Outsiders programme

"Morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have. It's not about being homophobic... that's like saying, if you don't believe in Islam, you're Islamophobic."

AIBU to think:

1. This absolutely is a homophobic thing to say
2. There are plenty of places in the world where you would get stoned for stating you didn’t believe in Islam!

Hopefully this link works: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47613578

Tolerance implies there is something that needs to be tolerated.

I agree that this is the implication but it's well known that there are mainstream religions like Islam, Catholicism, certain strands of Evangelical Christianity, presumably the more conservative branches of Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism etc (apologies if I am incorrect regarding any of these) in which the teachings have not changed for hundreds/thousands of years. Not just about homosexuality but sex before marriage etc. Obviously this is out of step with modern society so i guess tolerance is preached because we can't force everyone to agree but we can at least tolerate each other?

It is homophobic. It should not be pandered to. There may well be muslim children growing up who know they are gay. It's possible to know from a very young age. If home life is homophobic, school may be the lifeline that helps them understand it's normal and healthy and socially acceptable in this country to be who they really are.

FWIW, I'm a Christian and Christianity is full of foaming bigots too. Doesn't mean I have to passively accept it.All relgions change and adapt over time. Thsi era is the time for a shift away from bigotry in all its forms. These days there is no excuse for any religion to be homophobic. There's no need for it to be accepted by anyone as a 'religious belief' in either Muslim or Christian ethics. It's prejudicial hatred and it needs to be stamped out wherever it is found.

This is where the lumping in of the T with the LGB becomes a serious issue. It's positioning any objections to the T part of LGBT laying you open to being accused of homophobia. Being trans is not a sexual orientation, it has nothing to do with being LGB, it involves actually altering your body even if that is "just" a binder on developing breasts (which can itself cause permanent damage, see the horrific stories from the Pique Resilience women). It involves lying about biological facts, the endorsement of the most regressive gender stereotypes, and in many cases deliberate obfuscation of language and confusion of gender and sex. It is also irreversible in the way that exploring your sexuality is not.

I think it's telling that this programme was running without issue for a few years until children started telling their parents that girls could turn into boys.

Definitely homophobic. It’s not a valid comparison to say that calling their view homophobic is like calling people who don’t believe in Islam islamaphobic. If you believe in Islam, you are a Muslim. No one is encouraging anyone to BE gay, just saying some people ARE gay.

I accept it’s problematic. Many religions believe homosexuality to be a sin. I’m not sure what the content of the lessons are to be honest, but I would have thought that in describing families or relationships, it was simple enough to use descriptive language. “Some families have 2 mothers/fathers”. Then up to parents to give what guidance they deem appropriate. I’m sure the schools aren’t giving details about gay or lesbian sex.

I completely disagree that we should not teach our primary school children about gay relationships.

My fiance's ex-wife is a lesbian. Yep, you read that right. She now lives with a woman very happily in a long-term relationship. She married my OH because she was young and unsure of her sexuality, but also a part of her felt the need to conform.

When I first met my ex after being married to an abusive man I was so impressed by the kind way he spoke about his ex-wife. She is indeed a wonderful woman and I see her and her family often. My boys see them too and think she is fab.

She and her partner foster children-they currently are taking care of three and I admire them so very much. Two are primary-school age.

So is it really OK not to talk about gay relationships at primary school age? I think not.

...so if my children’s school was talking about trans people, I’d be fine with descriptors, but not with a “if you think you’re born in the wrong body, you can change sex” approach. I’d want to know exactly what materials were being used.

Got to be honest I don't want to download a pdf onto my phone so i can read it. That might not cause me to understand what's not age appropriate occuring to some people. I'd prefer those that have said that to say it to say what parts they think aren't age appropriate.

I think these people are stupid. I’m sure these lessons won’t go around telling children to change their sexual orientation, it just teaches tolerance. Teach your kids whatever you want at home, as long as you teach them to respect other people. I don’t think any religion teaches you to hate another human being.

A phobia is an irrational fear or aversion to something.

I believe Muslims or Islamists are entitled to their moral and/or religious beliefs and this does not make them homophobic.

Look I think bigoted people should not be allowed to dictate their disgusting viewpoints onto schools and local councils need to stand firm. These particular sets of muslim parents are not representative of all muslims. Indeed I am a 'loose' muslim and I strongly object to all homophobic hate.
My simple ethos is: heterosexuality is not ever asked to be justified: As in no one asks people 'when did you wake up and decide you are heterosexual'. In that same vein, no one decides they are homosexual, sexual orientation is a natural inclination.
Children need the safe space of school, without judgement to learn, that however the feel is absolutely fine. That love and families all come in different shapes and sizes.
There are plenty of muslims who are homosexual and have accepting families. The bigots truly should not win this round.

I think religion and sexuality is difficult. People are entitled to religious views. However they are not entitled to discriminate or act hatefully towards anyone because of their sexuality. I think it depends on the exact content and delivery of the teaching to know whether they were out of order to ban it.

However the 'homosexuality is not a valid sexual relationship' to me is both hateful and discriminatory, and legally wrong since there is now same sex marriage, and therefore to me that's a homophobic statement. I wouldn't be happy if anyone labelled my sexual relationship as not valid, mainly because it's the individual who decides that, as well as the law.

And it's not like saying if you don't believe in Islam, you're islamaphobic. There is a difference between saying 'I don't personally believe but I respect other people's beliefs and rights to worship whatever religion they want' and 'I don't believe in Islam so it's wrong and shouldn't be mentioned in religious education in schools incase kids start converting', which to me is what they are saying about homosexuality.

Being homosexual is not a religion, there is nothing to "believe". And what is the meaning of something "not being valid"? Who determines what is "valid" and what are the consequences for what, in their opinion, is "not valid"?

Not only the statement is homophobic, but the person stating it seems to be a bit thick.

Agreed that it’s Birmingham that’s beginning to come across as a bit homophobic and not just that one school. It’s a shame. It’s similar to the way Northern Irish people get tainted becuase of the homophobic DUP being in charge

The thing is, some kids are taught very different things at home than they are at school. This is true of a variety of different homes.

Surely the best way to bridge that difference is to introduce those topics when children are old enough to contextualise the conflicts?

No Outsiders bills the programme as ‘teaching about the Equality Act 2010’ but the Equality Act does have some issues with competing rights (parliament theoretically passes new laws but they only really become part of the legal system when the courts get to test cases - so far, the best legal test has been the Belfast gay cake case: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32065233 but that was a shop refusing service, it’s going to be a lot more complicated in contexts of public institutions, such as schools). The Equality Act is a bit of a mess really (Labour admit to rushing it through immediately prior to the election that replaced them with the coalition government, who voted the rush job through without paying much attention to it).

I’d like to have a proper look at the No Outsiders programme, but the book set costs £227 😬
It was written by a teacher, I haven’t been able to ascertain whether a legal expert has examined prior to publication.

It definitely goes way past ‘some families have two mummies and that is just fine’ though, because that’s been the primary position since my eldest was of that age (his best friend at primary had two mummies) and he is 18 now. He went to primary school in the other area that has now suspended the No Outsiders programme (south Manchester).

www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/more-birmingham-schools-suspend-no-16000250

www.theguardian.com/education/2019/mar/19/fresh-complaints-about-lgbt-lessons-at-greater-manchester-primary-schools

2010 article on the EA - framed solely as Employment legislation by the BBC: www.bbc.co.uk/news/10496993

Some more recent articles written by the original co author of the EA, Trevor Phillips, pointing out that it isn’t working as intended:

2016: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/muslim-communities-unlike-others-in-britain-former-race-equality-chief-trevor-phillips-says-a6836301.html

2017: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/19/trevor-phillips-i-dont-care-about-offending-people-has-political-correctness-gone-mad-channel-4

2018: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/11/policefighting-knife-violence-should-exempt-race-discrimination/

2018 again: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-extremists-are-putting-equality-at-risk-fjv8skwz0

As you can see from these articles, teaching 5 year olds about the Equality Act in an age appropriate way is going to be largely impossible - even the Human Rights expert that cowrote it has serious issues with how it has actually played out in the real world (see also the unforeseen problems with the Prevent Strategy)

I’m an atheist, personally and think religious objections to gay people are magical sky pixie horseshit, but setting this up as a two community LGBT v Islam battle will only make the conflicts worse in the long run.

There needs to be a proper assessment of how two different protected characteristics conflict and what we do about it, legally, age appropriately when it happens. Otherwise conservative religious families will just start home edding/setting up Free schools and we’ll end up with even less understanding of each other.

Plus, that’ll be a fucking disaster for the poor closeted gay and lesbian teenagers growing up in Muslim families.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I have several friends who are ostracised from their families because they are gay - and here’s what those families all have on conmon - religion. One is Catholic, one high c of e, one Presbyterian and one is Muslim. Religious intolerance should have no place in schools.

Of course it's homophobic or if I'm being generous discriminatory.

It's not the same as not believing in Islam.

Islam isn't something you are born with. It's a stupid comparison.

Unfortunately, Islam isn't a very tolerate religion. Not to say individuals who follow it cannot be incredibly accepting but en masse they are against many people.

You don't have to "agree" with homosexuality to acknowledge that it exists. You don't have to "agree" with Islam to acknowledge that it exists as a religion. However, just because you personally don't agree) approve doesn't give you carte blanche to dictate that you are right, morally or otherwise.
People don't choose to be gay, but they a n choose whether or not to be bigoted and ignorant.

I have never understood the use of the term "phobic" on the end of homophobic. Surely it should be "ist" as with racist?

It originates in the 1960s by psychologists, it reflects the medicalized language used against gay and bisexual people both by the medical profession (as it was at the time considered a mental disorder and some still view it as that way or similar with 'spiritual disorders' being a thing in some circles) and those who hate and attacked gay and bisexual people. There was discussions at the time that part of the fear was based on belief, subconscious or not, that same sex attraction was contagious, the fear of being seen as gay and being diminished in the eyes of others, or that it would destroy home and general society, attitudes that are still around today. That phobia's word origin is an irrational fear doesn't take away from history and use of homophobia as a concept -- and really, the only alternative I've ever seen is heterosexism which I'm not sure is better.

It's generally accepted that you answer questions when they come up.

This might general wisdom, but there are other things to consider when looking at readiness and that does leave kids who don't ask for whatever reasons out of things. In my experience, those kids have the same questions and will either look for answers in other ways or will come to their conclusions from what others say which can be wildly and dangerously off. I see no more reason to wait to discuss as fundamentally important to my kids' well-being as relationships and their bodies than to wait to teach them to read or to do multiplication until they asked.

These parents are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think some of their children aren’t going to be gay regardless of how ‘valid’ they or their religious leaders find it or how much they try to hide the fact that LGBT exist in the world.

I can't imagine any other protected class under the equality act being allowed to be protested about. Am I allowed to protest against teaching about black history?

SOME PEOPLE ARE GAY. Why do you care that your children are being taught about love, acceptance and that some families look different to yours? What are they so afraid of?

I think calling people thick or bigots doesn't help either.
Religion may be a choice for adults, but a child born into a religious family will be brought up in that faith.
As a parent (I'm not religious) I am very interested in what my child is learning at school. I would be concerned if something was being taught that I strongly disagreed with. I would like schools to stick to facts.
I don't think primary aged children are too young to understand that not everyone thinks the same way or believes the same things. I had spoken to my DD about same sex relationships in very general terms before she started school.

*A phobia is an irrational fear or aversion to something.

I believe Muslims or Islamists are entitled to their moral and/or religious beliefs and this does not make them homophobic.*

Basing ones outlook and beliefs on a medieval text without any scientific evidence whatsoever is irrational.

There's more to this than meets the eye.

Are you aware, the assistant head at the centre of this row, wrote (and stands to benefit financially from) the materials?

Is he really interested in promoting tolerance and inclusion in his school, or in using his school to promote his program?

He works in a school that has a majority of Muslim pupils.
It's tone deaf of him to us his school to promote his materials, which haven't been written with his school community in mind. There are much more sensitive ways to go about this, if his aim really was to promote tolerance and inclusion, in my opinion.

Why do you care that your children are being taught about love, acceptance and that some families look different to yours? What are they so afraid of?

This is kind of the whole point really. The school has implemented the teaching of something but has not managed to bring on board the parents of the children they are teaching. That is a huge omission and really does go against the fact that parents have a right to informed consent about their children's education.

We need schools to support our gay and lesbian youth, especially if they don't have family support.

The push of the trans agenda is muddying the waters, and taking support away from LGB.