To think this absolutely is homophobic

[HuntIdeas]

Muslim families have successfully argued for Birmingham primary schools to stop the No Outsiders programme

"Morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have. It's not about being homophobic... that's like saying, if you don't believe in Islam, you're Islamophobic."

AIBU to think:

1. This absolutely is a homophobic thing to say
2. There are plenty of places in the world where you would get stoned for stating you didn’t believe in Islam!

Hopefully this link works: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47613578

Then we end up with children not being exposed to views that challenge any hate against groups, that their parents are teaching them.

Just teach kids to be kind to everyone and not to insult or bully anyone. You don’t need a separate class for each group. Once they’re old enough they can get into all the details of what different groups believe etc.
Primary School is supposed to be about learning English, maths, basic science like weather and temperature. No wonder educational standards are so low.

Penguin couples - whether gay or straight- are nonsensical as an educational tool at any age.

"But we’re in the UK. Withdrawing children from a class does not take away any human rights"

People are allowed to believe that practicing homosexuality is wrong. I don't think there are any human rights to say otherwise.

I also do not believe there are any HR to say that parents cannot attempt to instil such beliefs in their offspring, or cannot attempt to prevent an alternative morality being instilled in them.

The only places where HR may apply is in tangible discrimination, but even then that only applies in certain contexts. You are allowed to refuse to accept your son's boyfriend as a guest in your house, but it is illegal to have a similar policy about gay coupples in your hotel.

So all in all, I'd have to agree that this isn't a HR matter. What it comes down to, is where we draw the line when it comes to how much control parent's can have over the moral messages their children are taught.

I think schools for the good of a peaceful diverse society have to teach kids about different kind of families that are protected under our laws.
Its also tough for kids with gay parents if only straight families are ever represented. Because the truth is straight families being normal is already taught in schools through storybooks.

I just posted on the other chat about this to say the police and city council response to this is disgusting. Anywhere else these protestors would be guilty of a hate crime the harassment they are causing. Birmingham doesn't like to rock the boat with any racial tension.

Breeze, what do you think about the bbc video about gay muslim youth?

jazzy I agree. But religion seems to trump gay rights every time.

Ok it looks like I've missed a couple of pages of posts. I will try to go back through and answer as much as possible.
The point about respecting beliefs is not about the specific points on homosexuality. It's about people saying they don't even want to live alongside people with those beliefs. But that comes as part of the religion, you can't isolate it and say 'Well, it's fine for you to believe in Islam but not if you believe that homosexual acts are forbidden'. Either you commit to allowing people with different religions to live here or you don't.

A few people talking about being 'less' or 'lesser'. What does this even mean? Less than what?

Wrt the video posted earlier, I'm not sure how it changes anything or adds any new perspective on what's been said so far.
I've already said that there's no problem with teaching children about the law in the UK, or about the fact that other people have different beliefs and lifestyles, just that they should be old enough to be able to understand that fully.
The Qur'an and Sunnah both make it clear that acting on homosexual desires is not allowed, so seeing people living proud, happy lives or whatever they said is not going to make a difference to the way people feel.
Practising Muslims are committed to following their religion, not changing it. Each person is only responsible for his or her own actions.

Jazzy if Birmingham council had dealt with the issue of school provision properly the protests wouldn't be happening. Councils in areas with a large Catholic minority provide schools to cater to that community, why is the same thing not happening with the Muslim community in Birmingham?

Racists back in the day also thought words like Paki shouldn’t be explained to young children who were using it as an insult when very young because they didn’t want their children to know what Paki etc meant.

So I assume people who don’t want the word gay explaining also don’t mind if their children are called Paki’s, nignogs, darkies, gringo etc, as you can’t punish a child for using a word if they do not know what it means.

JAPAB, wrt to this:

What it comes down to, is where we draw the line when it comes to how much control parent's can have over the moral messages their children are taught.

Anyone debating this should be acknowledging the fact that until now, people have been allowed to come to this country and establish their lives here for decades, while having almost full control of these matters.
This debate is not happening in a vacuum.

Simon I've said many times that you can teach children to be kind and not to use any insults. What is the point of people coming to post the same points over and over when they've already been dealt with?

Woodhill, head covering is mentioned in the Bible though, in 1 Corinthians 11:3.

The issue is that Paul is not interested in Jesus' life or message at all. He focuses only on Jesus' alleged death and resurrection and what he sees as its significance. Why then, did Jesus (peace be upon him) spend three years travelling around with his disciples and teaching people if all of that is to be overlooked by Paul?

The first two books of Galatians clearly show that Paul opposed the disciples. There are many instances throughout Paul's letters which show him coming into conflict with groups of early Christians. The Christian groups who were close to Judaism, and their texts, were fiercely suppressed by those who would later be seen as proto-Orthodox (including the Church Fathers).

Yet, Dr. Bart Ehrman who is a renowned Biblical scholar with knowledge of Aramaic and New Testament Greek, argued that these groups were more likely to be closer to the original teachings of Jesus. He also argued, through analysis of all the New Testament books, that Jesus believed himself to be a prophet, and that later Christians developed the idea of him being divine due to prevailing beliefs at the time.

We Muslims also believe that Jesus was a prophet and that later distortions led to him being believed to be divine.
That's why I don't trust Paul's account of his spiritual encounter. Why would there be any need for a spiritual encounter when Jesus had already conveyed the message to his disciples and others when he was on earth?
Remember that Paul was often preaching to the Gentiles, who at that time were very hostile to the Jews due to their hatred of Jewish practices such as circumcision and not eating pork. Also, many scholars believe that the author of the book of Acts was a travelling companion of Paul and thus biased in his favour.

The people in the video said that if they had the no outsiders program when they were at school, it would have made a big difference to their mental health. Because at home they were taught that who they were is wrong.

Where did they say they were taught that who they were is wrong at home? That concept doesn't make sense from an Islamic perspective.

If they're being taught that being gay wrong, that's what they're being taught.

They didn't mention what they were taught at home.

@breeze44 "councils provide catholic schools in catholic areas what about Muslims schools"

1 - catholic schools have generally been there for hundreds of years their existence is primarily historic doesn't mean its right

2 - this is Birmingham - Trojan horse scandal anyone????

And by the way I fundamentally disagree with segregating children by a religion imposed upon them by their parents.

So you don't think the girl whose family abandoned her at fifteen, or the guy who said he was depressed because he was gay and Muslim and thought that the no outsiders program would have had a huge impact on his mental health were being taught that it's wrong to be gay?

If the majority or parents at the school were racists, do you think they should not teach lessons about racism being wrong?

Jazzy if you're going to reword what I said please don't put it in quotation marks. In our area the council is happy to allow for Islamic schools as long as they are legal and open to inspection.

I can't infer anything from the small amount of information given in the programme. I don't agree with the woman's family cutting her off btw.