AIBU or have I talked an elderly lady into paying me for not working?

[AutovillaGirl]

I work as a cleaner and I've been cleaning this one particular lady for 2 years. She's 85, very sharp, very active, very wealthy. She's moving house in 2 weeks but she told me yesterday that she was getting a cleaning company in to do the final clean of her house and so she didn't want me to clean that week and so I will not get paid. She said it would be "too much for me" - as well as the whole house she wants the empty cupboards cleaning, etc. I'm put out by this as A) it wouldn't be too much for me - I've known about the move for months so each week I've been doing extra 'deep' cleaning in certain rooms and moving what heavy furniture I can to clean behind to make it easier for myself (I thought) to do the last clean. Instead I've been making it easier for the cleaning company who will get paid, not me. B) also put out that I won't get paid for that week, I rely on my money and can't afford to miss that money.

So when I said to her that I was concerned about losing my money that week, she went on to say that my usual day was not convenient anyway as she had removal men coming in that day to start packing crockery and paintings. When I said I didn't mind working around them she said well maybe I could move one of my other clients and come a different day (but why should one of my other clients be put out?). Anyway, after a while she said for me to not come that week but grudgingly agreed to pay me for that week. Then as I was going she said "by the way, when I move house, my new house is smaller, so I'll only need you for 2 hours not 3" which I was surprised about as it's only a tiny bit smaller. My husband said I shouldn't have really asked for the money as it's up to her whether she wants me to come or not. But none of my other clients have ever done that to me, I'm reliable, thorough and punctual and rarely have a day off and they let me know they appreciate me. But have I talked her into paying me when she didn't really want to?

Your mistake was assuming you would do the final clean and doing the extra work for it. You should have asked her and mentioned you were doing the extra work each week.

Do you have someone else to replace her if the loss of 1 hour work each week will leave you short?

I think 2 weeks notice is enough to not be required to pay you for that week and if she only wants 2 hours goin forwards you have one of 2 choices- accept that and continue cleaning for her or tell her that this wouldn’t be worthwhile
For you and fill her spot with another client

I don't think OP is envious, she just wants to make clear that this isn't someone struggling on a state pension.

As OP is used to getting this regular income, she should not lose a week's work.

I think you were wrong op. Firstly she has given you two weeks notice. That is more than sufficient for things like music lessons so should be enough for you.

Secondly, the choice to hire a different company is entirely hers. She may have assumed you are busy with other clients and would be unable to fit a deep clean in. She may want a team of cleaners to come in for a shorter time to minimise disruption. Maybe she has noticed you suddenly seem to be covering more during the same hours and is questioning what is going on. Whatever her reasoning, her choice is none of your business, and you were wrong to get into a discussion about it.

Lastly I think you have you have been a victim of your own cunning. You were expecting her to pay you for a deep clean, having already done a good chunk of the work. You essentially wanted to be paid for doing the same work twice and now someone else is benefiting. Quite fitting in my opinion.

Just FYI, i would have paid my current cleaner without hesitation. The house is always immaculate when she has been and she is scrupulously honest so I trust her implicitly. She is booked for four hours per week and if she finds there isn’t enough to do some weeks, she finishes early and let’s me know exactly what she has done and how long she has worked. I have offered to pay the set amount as the house always looks great when she has been, but she has said it would be wrong for her to take money for longer.

After your discussion, I think your customer will be much more wary of you going forward, with good reason.

You railroaded her and as a result have had your hours cut.

Like others above, I pay my cleaner if I cancel or if I go on holiday.

I think she may be trying to politely phase you out. I suggest you tell her that is not worth your while to come for shorter hours. That way she can just terminate and everyone can save face and you can get a new client.

People talking about "two weeks notice", how do you expect OP to realistically get exactly 3 hours work in a specific location at a specific time, once and only once? That seems very unrealistic to me.

It sounds like you were a bit pushy and have damaged the client relationship.
People view cleaners differently.
My MIL paid her cleaner holiday pay, and when they were renovating, they paid her 4 weeks pay, despite her not coming in at all.
I personally thought that was very generous and as your self-employed, I personally would only pay for the time you are at my house, but perhaps £1 more per hour as 'holiday pay' as that's what I got in my zero-hour contract jobs.
Over a weeks notice to cancel is plenty, hairdressers only ask for 24-48 hours... I think it's unfair of you to still expect to be paid although I understand it puts you out, hardly her problem, how much notice would you have preferred?
It's the risk you take.

You are definitely being unreasonable!! You can't take the piss just because she's wealthy. She'll find a new cleaner and I don't blame her.

I think there needs to be a little flexibility in a cleaning relationship. If this is the only time in 2 years she has not needed you, I don't think she should have to pay you. It is extenuating circumstances.

I think the problems comes from you assuming you would be doing the deep clean, and her assuming you would know, you wouldn't be. I wouldn't assume a weekly cleaner would have the time to do a deep clean which is normally 3 or 4 people, one on windows, one of the oven, one on the kitchen and the other doing the rest.

You should have had a conversation abut it months ago.

with cleaners it s a bit like verbal agreement not a contract but still carries some moral obligatory i think.
op you should tell her the extra work you've done for her moving house.
she sounds tight and unappreciative. maybe look around for another client. i agree with you.

Over a weeks notice to cancel is plenty, hairdressers only ask for 24-48 hours...

It's not the same thing. Cleaners are contracted regular hours at regular times.

Anyway... OP, I'd be looking to another client. Your current one doesn't seem to value you that much.

Good cleaners are hard to come by, I don't piss mine off!

'People talking about "two weeks notice", how do you expect OP to realistically get exactly 3 hours work in a specific location at a specific time, once and only once? That seems very unrealistic to me.'

That's not the client's problem, though. That comes under business risk.

I think you've been cheeky and grabby.

And I worked as a cleaner for years.

I can see it from both sides. If you are doing a regular clean, whilst you are not "employed" of course you rely on the money.

However, she gave you 2 weeks notice AND gave you some alternatives that worked for her - so on the whole i think YABU.

I've had to chop and change my cleaner around the last few weeks (she comes fortnightly) as i'm having very disruptive work done in the house. One of the cleans i had to cancel on a few days notice, so i paid her as usual. The others i've provided a few weeks notice, so I haven't paid.

I think she probably found you pushy and a bit cheeky if I'm honest. You should have left it with her. You wanted payment for next week when she clearly told you in advance that she didn't need you. Now she feels slighted by you, so she's cut your hours down for the new home. I think it's your fault really.

I have a cleaner/personal care assistant and value her work and all the help she gives me.
If she cancels I don't pay. If I cancel I still pay...this was agreed on our first meeting.
I also pay her holiday pay(my choice)...she takes one week off in summer, bank holidays including Christmas.

She works really hard and if she doesn't work she does not get paid.

She provides an invaluable Service for lots of people including someone like me who cannot do any cleaning and needs a lot of help with personal care.

I think you have a very physical and stressful job dealing with many clients and the last thing you need is one who doesn't see that you provide a good service and does not respect what you do.

This woman has not discussed any options with you at all about the situation which shows a lack of respect for what you do.

She knows full well that you will lose those hours and just expects you to find other work.
I would advise you to ensure all your clients know that if they cancel they will have to pay....this is not an unreasonable request at all!
People do value their Cleaners/Home Helps/Personal Care Assistants.
I would look for another Client to fill those 3hours.

You have as much right to choose who you provide a Service to OP.

People talking about "two weeks notice", how do you expect OP to realistically get exactly 3 hours work in a specific location at a specific time, once and only once? That seems very unrealistic to me.

On our local FB page we often have cleaners advertising last minute one-off clean slots, they always seem to be taken up. Worth a try for op maybe?

Good cleaners are hard to come by, I don’t piss mine off!

Quite. Op has said she has been moving furniture etc in preparation for a deep clean. Who’s to say op’s usual standards are good?

I don't think you were cheeky, grabby, pushy or any of the other things people have said. Cleaning is a tough job, the pay is poor, and you should be properly treated as an employee. If you'd only worked for her for a matter of weeks or even months then two weeks' notice would have been fine. But two years? I think she has a moral obligation to treat you properly even if the law hasn't caught up yet. I think you've been shabbily treated.

I have so much sympathy for precarious workers in situations like this. I think a lot of middle class people are extremely selfish in the way that they expect to be able to hire/fire/cancel/rearrange appointments, without any thought for the fact that they are a small part of that person's livelihood. The issue isn't one of contracts, it's one of moral right. They would, however, be outraged, if their own boss turned around and treated their salaried occupation the same way: "It's a slack week, we'll only pay you 3 days this week".

I don't think people should hire a cleaner if they're not prepared to pay regularly, and to have a modicum of care for that person's financial stability. It's just basic decency.

I've cancelled my cleaner before when we're away or it's not convenient etc without paying him.

However it's through an agency so I assume the cleaner can ask the agency for another job to make up the difference. I try to give as much notice as possible

Although there may be no obligation to pay a cleaner who you use casually, it’s akin to
zero-hours contract. If I cancelled with little or no notice, I have still paid my cleaner as morally the right thing to do, in the same way I think the abuse of zero-hours contracts by some employers is morally wrong.

Not cheeky or pushy at all!

I can't get my head around this really. If the OP has been 'deep cleaning' for the last few months, what counts as normal cleaning? and surely doing it months ago means it's no longer clean?

Anyway, I don't have a cleaner so I don't know the etiquette. PIL have one that they get through an agency. It seems a lot simpler because they have a proper contract and providing they give enough notice they don't have to pay if they cancel and because sometimes they get different cleaners it's not as if anyone is missing out if they cancel, the worker just gets assigned another job.

I think the OP is BU, if you're self-employed and don't have a contract with your clients this is the risk you take.