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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU or have I talked an elderly lady into paying me for not working?

296 replies

AutovillaGirl · 13/03/2019 09:07

I work as a cleaner and I've been cleaning this one particular lady for 2 years. She's 85, very sharp, very active, very wealthy. She's moving house in 2 weeks but she told me yesterday that she was getting a cleaning company in to do the final clean of her house and so she didn't want me to clean that week and so I will not get paid. She said it would be "too much for me" - as well as the whole house she wants the empty cupboards cleaning, etc. I'm put out by this as A) it wouldn't be too much for me - I've known about the move for months so each week I've been doing extra 'deep' cleaning in certain rooms and moving what heavy furniture I can to clean behind to make it easier for myself (I thought) to do the last clean. Instead I've been making it easier for the cleaning company who will get paid, not me. B) also put out that I won't get paid for that week, I rely on my money and can't afford to miss that money.

So when I said to her that I was concerned about losing my money that week, she went on to say that my usual day was not convenient anyway as she had removal men coming in that day to start packing crockery and paintings. When I said I didn't mind working around them she said well maybe I could move one of my other clients and come a different day (but why should one of my other clients be put out?). Anyway, after a while she said for me to not come that week but grudgingly agreed to pay me for that week. Then as I was going she said "by the way, when I move house, my new house is smaller, so I'll only need you for 2 hours not 3" which I was surprised about as it's only a tiny bit smaller. My husband said I shouldn't have really asked for the money as it's up to her whether she wants me to come or not. But none of my other clients have ever done that to me, I'm reliable, thorough and punctual and rarely have a day off and they let me know they appreciate me. But have I talked her into paying me when she didn't really want to?

OP posts:
LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 13/03/2019 09:35

Well you've lost an hour a week for the sake of three hours this week, so I guess you're right and she is still pretty sharp. You're self employed - unless you have a contract that states otherwise, you aren't paid when you don't work.

Magenta82 · 13/03/2019 09:35

I think if you have a regular slot and she wants you to keep it after the move, albeit for a shorter time then she should pay you. It is her cancelling not you.

If she (or you) wants to end the relationship then it should end the week before the last clean and you should not be paid.

I would also stop doing extra deep clean work between now and then.

SileneOliveira · 13/03/2019 09:35

The OP can't fill those three hours for one week with another client. This lady has reserved those hours, on that day. She has to pay for them whether she uses them or not.

Rubbish. That's the risk you take as a self-emplyoed person. Clients can decide at any time that they're not using your services any more. Clients might decide that they want to pay you, but there is absolutely no legal obligation to do so.

The OP also has the choice to carry on cleaning for the client on reduced hours, or stop cleaning altogether.

wineandroses1 · 13/03/2019 09:35

I agree with gamerchick, I and everyone I know who has a cleaner weekly pays the cleaner if they cancel the weekly clean. If the cleaner cancels then they don’t get paid. That’s standard. Self employed cleaners need that regular arrangement and a regular income. If I told my cleaner not to come on the odd week and didn’t offer to pay, she’d soon be looking for someone else to fill that slot.

CJsGoldfish · 13/03/2019 09:36

I probably wouldn't have you back at all after that so I'd consider yourself lucky that she is

DuckbilledSplatterPuff · 13/03/2019 09:36

Its absolutely not the same as a hairdresser unless you have a regular weekly 3 hours at the hairdressers for two years.

You've been working for her for two years and reserving time, which you could have given to other clients, for her at her convenience. She has in effect booked your time, just as she would book a driving lesson.
I think she does owe you.
Just as if you book music lessons for a term and your child does not turn up to one of them... I still have to pay for that lesson because the music teacher can't just sell those random spare hours. I have reserved them for my use. Just because I can't use them one week, I've still reserved them over a long period of time.. Therefore I need to pay for them.
Its different if she wants to change the regular hours from two to three when she moves.
But to cut your pay with two weeks notice because it doesn't suit her to have you there even if you are ready and willing to work those two hours is not acceptable.
I wouldn't worry about being "cheeky" you've clearly been giving her a good and reliable service for two years.
I still think she will refuse to pay you by the way. \collect the money before your last visit and text her in advance to say that you will be doing so.

NuffSaidSam · 13/03/2019 09:36

'I don’t have a contract with my cleaner either?'

Most people will have at least a verbal contract.

I've never met anyone who had a cleaner who turned up at any time, on any day, for any length of time based on whether they felt like it or not.

Most people will have arranged for their cleaner to come regularly e.g. every Wednesday, for three hours, 2-5pm and would expect that to be reliably every week. That's still a contract even if it's not written down and overseen by a legal team!

I don't know the legalities of a verbal contract, but practically and morally that's a contract.

IceRebel · 13/03/2019 09:37

I hope you point out to her that in preparation you have moved and cleaned under furniture etc and all the other things that will save the cleaning company time/money

But surely the cleaners will do a deep clean regardless of whether the OP has done so or not. If she has been deep cleaning for the last few weeks, a deep clean of the living room could have been done 4 weeks ago.

SpiritedLondon · 13/03/2019 09:38

I think you’ve coerced her and she probably felt uncomfortable about the whole exchange. You assumed you’d be carrying on doing the same hours after she moved and you assumed she’d be asking you to do the final clean ( so all that extra cleaning was down to you). Flexibility in these relationships is a 2 way street

Coronapop · 13/03/2019 09:39

I think the OP has a valid point. It would be natural to assume that the OP would do the final cleaning of the house the woman is moving out of. Good regular reliable cleaners are hard to find IME, whereas there are any number of agencies who specialise in 'end of tenancy ' deep cleans etc. Although not contractual I don't think the OP was unreasonable to want to be paid for the week in question.

DuckbilledSplatterPuff · 13/03/2019 09:42
  • just to clarify I mean to cut your pay for your last day in her current house at short notice, she knew she was moving and could have given a longer notice period after you've been working for her regularly. I'd find a new client too as I imagine that by the time you factor in travel time, two hours is less profitable. There must be contracts that you can get online which you could give to clients in advance with terms and conditions on it, which would save you this trouble in future, by spelling out notice periods and what happens if you are able to work but not required, eg when people go on holiday. I bet these things can be worked out if you know well in advance, but harder if you only have two weeks notice.
Ellisandra · 13/03/2019 09:43

I would go back to her and say you couldn’t possibly take payment when you’re not there.

It could be that she doesn’t need you for 3 hours a week but has been kindly keeping you for those hours as you’ve been reliable and she wanted a positive relationship to continue. Then, having done that for you, she’s put out that you are grumbling about not being needed in a week when many would cancel. So she’s decided that as it isn’t the great relationship she thought, sod it - she will stop paying you for 3 hours when you only need 2.

If you’ve been able to fit deeper clean time into your 3 hours, then sounds like you don’t need 3 hours for a normal clean.

WhatToDoAboutWailmerGoneRogue · 13/03/2019 09:43

YWBVU and cheeky, but you’re paying the price because you’ve now lost an hour a week.

It doesn’t matter what you want to do. If she wants you to clean, you clean and get paid. If she doesn’t, you don’t clean, and you don’t get paid.

It is unacceptable to railroad an elderly lady into paying you for nothing just because you know she can afford it.

ittakes2 · 13/03/2019 09:46

I have been hiring cleaners in the Uk for almost 20 years through cleaning companies. If I tell them I am going on holiday and I don't need them a certain week I don't need to pay them. I do sometimes offer them to come a few times when I am away as I know they might appreciate the money and there is always tidying to do. If they cancel on me or they go on holiday I don't need to pay them.
In the whole time I have had cleaners - I have never had them do a final clean of the house - they have never asked and I have never offered. There are specialist cleaning companies that do that.

BejamNostalgia · 13/03/2019 09:46

You should have taken up the offer to do it on on a different day. Refusing that was pushing her to pay you for not working and was out of order.

Plus you made a mistake by taking it on yourself to start doing deep cleaning without discussing that with her and okaying it. You’re employed to do day to day cleaning so if you’ve started doing deep cleaning tasks for the move without being asked she’s probably wondering what’s caused the day to day cleaning not to be done to its normal standard.

That’s a bit of a con too really isn’t it? You wanted her to pay you extra for the big moving clean, but you’ve actually been slipping bits of that into your normal cleaning routine so in effect she would be paying you twice to do the same work because you’ve been coopting bits of work from the big clean into your normal paid time but you still want her to pay you full whack for the big clean as if you’ve done it from scratch when you’ve already done a lot of it and been paid for it previously.

I think you’re on a bit of a con there and you’ve been caught out. Tough shit really.

Wheredidthebackboobscomefrom · 13/03/2019 09:47

You are being very cheeky and very unreasonable. You are not required to provide a service so you should not be getting paid. I feel for the lady and think its poor form to mention that she is wealthy...

Bowerbird5 · 13/03/2019 09:48

If I had a cleaner and left it that late to inform her I would pay.

If I was the cleaner I wouldn’t have asked to be honest. I can understand you were miffed about moving the furniture ready for the move but you were paid for that time. She may have been thinking kindly that she didn’t want you to have to do such hard work.
Don’t forget she will be quite stressed about moving at her age. She may change her mind later about the hours so I would just go with it and see.

NWQM · 13/03/2019 09:49

Hate to say this but it all depends on what is in the terms and conditions that you agreed when you started the job. Neither of you are necessarily being unreasonable. Either scenerio might be technically right.

Unfortunately if you havent agreed terms with clients then you have left yourself open to this.

Personally I’d pay my cleaner. I’d probalay ask for some flexibility though and maybe you could clean the new house she is moving into or something but actually I’d only do that because I like her and know she needs the money. She works for an agency who are actually terrible employers - they charge 50% for any cleaning slots cancelled but she is on a zero hour contract so her boss pockets 50% for making a phone call to her & she gets nothing. In theory this can be in the day. Won’t be using them again if she leaves.

There are lots of avenues for advice re being self employed. Get some and reissue terms and conditions to all your clients with cancellation clauses etc.

bigKiteFlying · 13/03/2019 09:49

There must be contracts that you can get online which you could give to clients in advance with terms and conditions on it, which would save you this trouble in future, by spelling out notice periods and what happens if you are able to work but not required, eg when people go on holiday. I bet these things can be worked out if you know well in advance, but harder if you only have two weeks notice.

^^ This.

I think this is the problem both of you working from a different set of assumptions.

I'd be thinking about how you want to proceed - would it be better to fill that block with another client? Or is it worth taking the two hours per week and if it is is it worth taking this weeks money or is it going to be more trouble and bad feeling going forward.

viccat · 13/03/2019 09:50

I can see both sides. Perhaps this is a good time to review your contract going forward (with all clients) in regards to short notice cancellations (by them)? The biggest problem here is your client's clearly very different expectations.

It is very common in other "services" provided by a self-employed person (music teachers as others have pointed out, or therapists of all kinds etc.) to charge for a missed or cancelled slot as you are reserving that time for the client and can't easily fill it as a one-off. Even my vet's practice has it in their T&C's that there may be a charge if you miss an appointment.

mrsdavys · 13/03/2019 09:50

YABU. Cheeky to get her to pay

EstuaryBird · 13/03/2019 09:50

Before you started preparing for a deep clean you should have spoken to her about it and asked if she wanted you to do extra hours etc.

You were wrong to push her over cleaning on the week she was moving. If you’d left it you’d quite likely still be on 3 hours a week.....seems like that was a last minute stab to assert her authority because if she didn’t like you she’d have just dumped you.

Sorry OP, you played it wrong.

AndItStillSaidFourOfTwo · 13/03/2019 09:50

Other self-employed people who offer a regular service (different from this and also not in my field) will often have clauses in their contracts which stipulate a minimum notice period for cancelling. It's often something like 48 hours. If the service provider doesn't draw up a contract with such a clause, the risk of this happening lies with them. And two weeks is plenty of notice.

Weebitawks · 13/03/2019 09:50

If I cancelled on my cleaner, I would pay her. If she cancelled on me, I wouldn't.

slashlover · 13/03/2019 09:52

I've known about the move for months so each week I've been doing extra 'deep' cleaning in certain rooms and moving what heavy furniture I can to clean behind to make it easier for myself

If you've been doing this within the 3 hours she's paying you for then maybe you didn't need 3 hours for a regular clean at the current house?