AIBU or have I talked an elderly lady into paying me for not working?

[AutovillaGirl]

I work as a cleaner and I've been cleaning this one particular lady for 2 years. She's 85, very sharp, very active, very wealthy. She's moving house in 2 weeks but she told me yesterday that she was getting a cleaning company in to do the final clean of her house and so she didn't want me to clean that week and so I will not get paid. She said it would be "too much for me" - as well as the whole house she wants the empty cupboards cleaning, etc. I'm put out by this as A) it wouldn't be too much for me - I've known about the move for months so each week I've been doing extra 'deep' cleaning in certain rooms and moving what heavy furniture I can to clean behind to make it easier for myself (I thought) to do the last clean. Instead I've been making it easier for the cleaning company who will get paid, not me. B) also put out that I won't get paid for that week, I rely on my money and can't afford to miss that money.

So when I said to her that I was concerned about losing my money that week, she went on to say that my usual day was not convenient anyway as she had removal men coming in that day to start packing crockery and paintings. When I said I didn't mind working around them she said well maybe I could move one of my other clients and come a different day (but why should one of my other clients be put out?). Anyway, after a while she said for me to not come that week but grudgingly agreed to pay me for that week. Then as I was going she said "by the way, when I move house, my new house is smaller, so I'll only need you for 2 hours not 3" which I was surprised about as it's only a tiny bit smaller. My husband said I shouldn't have really asked for the money as it's up to her whether she wants me to come or not. But none of my other clients have ever done that to me, I'm reliable, thorough and punctual and rarely have a day off and they let me know they appreciate me. But have I talked her into paying me when she didn't really want to?

morningtoncrescent62 if people want to be ‘properly treated as an employee’ they are perfectly free to get a job as an employee. People take the decision to be self-employed because of the benefits, eg flexibility, choose own hours, etc. But it cuts both ways. One cannot pick and chose the aspects of self-employment they like. It’s a package. (I say this as someone very aware of the benefits and pitfalls of self-employment).

Agree with @LuaDipa OP is BU

OP I would pay you for that extra week, it's too short notice for you to pick up work to fill the slot, and you're being expected to work again after the move. I would do it for good will and not wanting to put someone who worked regularly for me in a position where they were out of pocket. If I have a standing appointment with someone - as other posters have mentioned - and I want to skip a week I would usually pay a fee, unless I wanted to lose the slot to another regular client. If she's happy to reemploy you, then that makes sense to me, good cleaners are not that easy to find. However it may be that on the surface she seems wealthy but is actually cash poor, that might be why she's moving house and cutting back your hours. She may have lost money in investments, for example, because of Brexit or some other issue. Of course she may also be a bit tight with money, it's hard to say without knowing her.

I wouldn't have you back to clean the new house - you were cheeky and pushy and I'd cancel our agreement.

You should have made your intentions clear when you were doing extra bits and you assumed that you would be doing any final clean of the property. You coerced someone into paying you by using emotional blackmail -and probably a wobbly bottom lip-. I'd have told you to take a long walk off a short pier and to not bother coming back.

You were out of order and your description of your client speaks volumes.

Although there may be no obligation to pay a cleaner who you use casually, it’s akin to zero-hours contract. If I cancelled with little or no notice, I have still paid my cleaner as morally the right thing to do, in the same way I think the abuse of zero-hours contracts by some employers is morally wrong.

This.

The whole point of being self-employed is that you're not an employee, and if you don't work, you don't get paid.

Most self-employed people have a cancellation period that they make very clear to you, for example driving instructors. Did you have that in place with your client?

If you want to be paid for not working, get a salaried job at a company instead of coercing clients.

I used to not pay my cleaning lady if she didn't come whether it was me that asked her not to or her that said she couldn't come. However, after reading a thread on here(!), I felt that I was being a bit unfair not paying when it was me cancelling..but then if I was away for a 2 or 3 week holiday, I was still rather reluctant to pay for so long for my cleaner to do nothing.
I have compromised (in my mind anyway) by not paying if I give a few weeks notice that she won't be needed but paying if I only give short notice. That way she has time to take on more short term work like deep cleans. I also pay double as a Christmas tip. My cleaning lady is really good (I have had some bad ones in the past!) so I want to keep her happy! I don't pay if she cancels.
I think with your lady it all depends how much notice she gave you. Perhaps you could have been a bit more flexible about switching the day? That was the part of the post where I felt you were not very accommodating.
As the relationship seems to have soured, perhaps it would be better to look for another customer and let her find another cleaner for her new house.

When I have had to cancel my cleaner at short notice due to me being sick etc, I always pay her. However when we were moving I gave her about 3-4 weeks notice that we wouldn't need her services for a few months whilst we worked everything out and understood if she couldn't keep our slot open and she was absolutely fine with it. I think 2 weeks is on the edge of cutting it a bit fine notice wise but not massively unreasonable for a service like cleaning/gardening etc.

Also if you had pressed the point with me the way you did her I certainly wouldn't have been continuing with your service in my new house.

I am interested in why you think she owes you something because you did a deeper clean in some areas for a few weeks prior to the move. Surely if this was within the 3 hours she is paying you for then you have been paid for that work?

Does OP even have the equipment to do the final clean? I'm assuming it would need a carpet cleaner, possibly a steam cleaner etc.

PenelopeFlintstone totally agree with you, a lot of posters on here seem to think they own the people they work for, and think it's okay to treat them with disdain/contempt. I've always been quite careful not to do this, provide builders with tea/food, add bonus for work well done. As a result people have cancelled other contracts to fit in my work, done extra jobs for me as a favour without being asked, and I've generally had good relations with people I've employed. I don't see that as being taken advantage of - I've also fired people who don't do work properly. I imagine some of the sour attitudes on here come from people who don't work at the relationship with contractors and so on and so get the bare minimum from people they employ. I lived next to someone like this, she ran through cleaners and even when she found a good one, they usually quit.

I'm with LuaDipa.

I think zero hours contracts are of the devil, and that they should be banned, but they are contracts of employment, which is a state fundamentally different from that of being self-employed (genuinely self-employed, by choice, with clients plural, as is the case here).

Everything has downsides and bonuses. This sort of situation is one of the downsides of self-employment. The bonuses include (obv subject to any agreement you make with the client) being able to sack off annoying clients, pick and choose when work is plentiful, not have your holidays dictated, etc. Employees' leverage is (or should be) their employment rights, while that of people who work for themselves is the demand for their services.

I think you pushed her into saying she would pay you and now you've lost a hour a weeks money. That's a shame for you but you were very pushy, and as a pp said, if that were my mother you were cleaning for I wouldn't be very happy about it.

I would not expect to pay you if you did not come. Do you have a firmak contract , signed with her!p that covers this? If not you are being unreasonable to expect her to pay you. IF SHe only wants you for two hours in the new place then either accept that, or advise her you can’t clean for her any more

I don’t think you are being unreasonable in principle; you have x amount of available hours per week and x amount of customers to fill those hours. If a client wants a weekly clean then it’s every week.

However. As a self-employed person you are being unreasonable. You should have a contract that clearly lays out your terms and conditions, criteria for cancelling, holidays (theirs and yours) sickness on your part and so on. Not having this leaves you open to the situation. Alot of self-employed people treat the legal and admin side far too casually.

If you don’t currently have an adequate contract with this customer you shouldn’t be charging her.

A proper deep clean includes: cooker extractor filters de-greased, shower heads unscrewed and descaled, inside of windows hand cleaned, carpets steam cleaned, drawers emptied and wiped out, drains declogged of hair etc, ovens stripped out and cleaned, skirtings and architraves wiped down......it's a big undertaking if done to standard. A big house can need a deep clean of 2 days x 2 people working 7-7pm in my experience ....I've had it done.

I’m sorry OP ... you behaved appallingly! It sounds like you’ve railroaded an old lady into paying you money when she doesn’t want to. It doesn’t matter that she’s sharp, active and wealthy .... she's 85 and didn’t want to pay you that week, she gave you notice and reasons. You’ve made her grudgingly agree to pay you. It reads awful OP. Sorry, but shame on you.

Sorry....squashed carpet pile restored where furniture has sat, front of kitchen cupboards polished, dishwasher filters cleaned. Big job.

Yes I'm struggling to see how a deep clean can be done over a few months, surely the idea is that everything is pristine at the same time for the new owners?

Christ, I’m really surprised by some of these responses. Why do people think it’s okay to treat people doing menial work like dirt? To my mind this is more like a childminder situation. You couldn’t just dick them around and say I don’t need you look after dc today so I’m just not paying. To my mind this lady is trying to dick you around. No decent person would just cancel a regular arrangement at the last minute and not pay.

It's only once a house is vacated that you can see the muck. Piles of dust and fluff accumulate under impossible to access furniture; that's normal. A house can have a sparkle clean each week and appear to be lovely... but then when it's emptied...OMG. Years of deep grease laden dust on top of kitchen cupboards, dead flies in the light fittings ...it's a massive job.

Two weeks notice isn’t last minute, two hours would be. This is an 85 year old lady moving house, one of life’s most stressful experiences at any age, and OP has just added to that stress. She wouldn’t even try to go on the day the client wanted her when her work would have been of some use. I can’t believe people are defending her.

@Didiusfalco...but she did get some recompense after discussion and commitment to continued work at the woman's new home. Presumably one reason why the client is downsizing is because she wants lower running costs??? I'm sure if 2 hours per week doesn't suffice for the clean in the new house, the OP will be vocal enough to say so.

No one is saying they are treating people who provide services for them like crap! My cleaner is a lovely woman who I pay a fair amount to in exchange for her services just like my clients do to my employer for my services. Doesn't mean I should pay for services I do not need or she does not provide (within reasonable notice periods). I think some people here have a chip on their shoulder to be honest.

@Tinkobell Agree! I couldn't believe how long it took to clean our last house when we left, made me feel really grubby even though it had been cleaned regularly up to then.

My housekeeping lady comes three times a week. If SHE cancels I don’t pay, if I cancel then I would offer to pay. It’s not fair that my lady would be out of pocket because of a change to my plans.

Our agreement is theee times weekly, she keeps those slots for me on the understanding she will be paid. I can’t keep my slot open so she is unable to secure other work, and not pay her, that just isn’t fair.

I would have paid you op.
I would also have given you plenty of notice in a change of hours too

Of course you rely on the money. I am sad that you have been treated this way tbh ( I may add possibly she is ill, had other worries so there may be a good reason)

I am not sure why you couldn’t have done the final clean and earnt a little extra. I am always trying to find ways to help my lady, and also regularly the odd box of chocolates etc to say thank you.