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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU or have I talked an elderly lady into paying me for not working?

296 replies

AutovillaGirl · 13/03/2019 09:07

I work as a cleaner and I've been cleaning this one particular lady for 2 years. She's 85, very sharp, very active, very wealthy. She's moving house in 2 weeks but she told me yesterday that she was getting a cleaning company in to do the final clean of her house and so she didn't want me to clean that week and so I will not get paid. She said it would be "too much for me" - as well as the whole house she wants the empty cupboards cleaning, etc. I'm put out by this as A) it wouldn't be too much for me - I've known about the move for months so each week I've been doing extra 'deep' cleaning in certain rooms and moving what heavy furniture I can to clean behind to make it easier for myself (I thought) to do the last clean. Instead I've been making it easier for the cleaning company who will get paid, not me. B) also put out that I won't get paid for that week, I rely on my money and can't afford to miss that money.

So when I said to her that I was concerned about losing my money that week, she went on to say that my usual day was not convenient anyway as she had removal men coming in that day to start packing crockery and paintings. When I said I didn't mind working around them she said well maybe I could move one of my other clients and come a different day (but why should one of my other clients be put out?). Anyway, after a while she said for me to not come that week but grudgingly agreed to pay me for that week. Then as I was going she said "by the way, when I move house, my new house is smaller, so I'll only need you for 2 hours not 3" which I was surprised about as it's only a tiny bit smaller. My husband said I shouldn't have really asked for the money as it's up to her whether she wants me to come or not. But none of my other clients have ever done that to me, I'm reliable, thorough and punctual and rarely have a day off and they let me know they appreciate me. But have I talked her into paying me when she didn't really want to?

OP posts:
Tutterly · 14/03/2019 02:32

It's down to basic employment law.

ThriftyMcThrifty · 14/03/2019 02:49

If you have a cleaner who comes at the same time each week, you surely pay them as usual, even if you don’t need them. We’ve always done that, so if we went away for a fortnight, we’d tell her just to come once but still pay for two visits. However I wouldn’t have expected to have to employ my usual cleaner for a deep clean - surely that’s a bigger job and up to her who she uses.

mimibunz · 14/03/2019 02:55

If we cancel our cleaner one week we will still pay her. She relies on that money and we want her to feel secure in her job and not stressed about the money.

whywhywhy6 · 14/03/2019 03:05

YABU

GreenDragon75 · 14/03/2019 03:15

Reading some of the comments on here I can see why people find it hard to get a good cleaner.
If you need more hours op then I would be looking for another job on that day. Fwiw I don’t think you were bu.

Redglitter · 14/03/2019 03:19

I've cancelled my cleaner on a couple of occassions and I paid her.

If I cancel her I.pay her. If she cancels me I dont.

Smotheroffive · 14/03/2019 03:27

I think when you've been cleaning every week for her for so long, she can't expect you to just take the hit when she makes a plan over the top of your normal cleaning day. I don't think it's unreasonable to recompense you for that.

Did you explain to her about all the additional cleaning you'd been doing in preparation so she'd be wasting her money with a company coming in? I mean it's her choice at the end of the day,but its saving her money, and its unnecessary

However, moving is super stressful and she must have a lot to organise and stress about, which might be affecting how she's doing things during the move.

She's downgraded your hours, but time will tell if two hours is enough going forward. She'll soon know if it's not.

Madein1995 · 14/03/2019 06:45

I think YABU and your attitude may well be why she wants you less in the new house.

You're a cleaner, you're providing a service. You're not a nanny or housekeeper employed by the lady, you're self employed. Any shortfall in wages is yours to anticipate. It certainly isn't on to get paid for doing nothing! It sounds a bit like you bullied the old lady into having you.

She didn't want you, yet you're still getting paid. She offered to have you on a different day, you were inflexible and took the attitude 'why should you have special treatment'. Forgetting that she is your customer.

Why would you accept payment on that week, if you haven't done the work? She's an elderly lady. Whether she's active or rich has FA to do with anything.

I suggest if you're reliant on a reliable wage them you look for employment, not self employed. The nature of self employment is that your wages can change and that doesn't seem to suit your lifestyle

MrsElijahMikaelson1 · 14/03/2019 06:51

To my mind, I employ my cleaner. How we work it, is if I cancel, then I pay-she is reliant on getting paid-I can’t pick up and put down and still expect her to have capacity. If she cancels to go on holiday for example, then I don’t pay, as it’s her choice not to come.

MaybeitsMaybelline · 14/03/2019 06:58

Ok, so I have never had a cleaner but I would assume that when a client was moving home it would mean a natural end to an agreeement which would be reviewed by both parties in advance of the move. This would be for several reasons, the location of the new property, the size of it, whether the client still needed or wanted a cleaner, any change in residents of the new house such as moving in with a partner, step children, pets etc

The client is moving, she reviewed the agreement and gave notice of her intention.

I don’t see anything more than this.

SileneOliveira · 14/03/2019 07:15

It's down to basic employment law.

No it isn't as the cleaner is not an employee. (bangs head off a brick wall).

loveskaka · 14/03/2019 07:29

She dsnt need to pay u if there isn't a contract. Like others have said it a service not employment.

Tixywixy · 14/03/2019 07:41

All these people talking about the law. How depressing. Yes she's self employed but she's not a well paid lawyer or accountant. It's poorly paid, precarious work but an extremely valuable service for the receiver of it.

It's much harder to fit in a one-off client at short notice than it is for a vet or a dentist.

I also think she would have reduced the hours anyway, not just because you asked for payment on this occasion. You may find it will be hard to fit in the work in the time available. I don't know about your area OP but round here people would be biting your arm off for your services. I'd look for a new client.

Lweji · 14/03/2019 07:44

There is at least a verbal contract of every week for 3 hours. The client doesn't need to book every week.
The problem is that they haven't agreed on what happens when either cancels. But, without this agreement, I'd say that if the client has contracted the regular service but doesn't use it, for their own convenience, the client should still pay.

PenelopeFlintstone · 14/03/2019 09:06

You're providing a service. You're not an employee or hired help.

It's not employment. It's paying for a service. The client is not an employer. The cleaner is not an employee.

Everybody on here seems to think this, but it wasn't always this way I don't think. Why would a cleaner on low pay want to be self-employed with no sick leave or holiday pay? Did cleaners actually have a say in this shift?

PCohle · 14/03/2019 09:26

People here don't "think it", it's true as a matter of employment law.

I don't think it's a recent change, no. Well unless you're talking about the shift to people only needing a cleaner for a couple of hours a week v people having a full time "maid of all works" - but that hasn't been the case since about the 40s I would have thought. And I don't imagine holiday pay was great then...

whattimeisitnow · 14/03/2019 09:46

I think she's been unfair to you. She should have given you more notice and be intelligent enough to understand that you might miss that money.

Time to move on and find another client for 3 hours/ week.

Waspnest · 14/03/2019 09:47

I would assume that a cleaner wants to be self-employed for the flexibility. No client is going to want to employ a cleaner just for the few hours a week because of all the employer liabilities. I guess the halfway house is for a cleaner to work for an agency, the work will be more reliable but then maybe the pay is lower because of the fees.

The bit I never understand with this situation is that years ago the deal with self employment (or agency work) was that whilst the job may have no security or benefits , the pay was higher to compensate, why doesn't this work with cleaners? Loads of people seem to say that good cleaners are worth their weight in gold etc. so why aren't they paying them more? Rather than pay them for when you cancel/give them a Christmas bonus why not just....pay them a higher hourly rate throughout the year?

PenelopeFlintstone · 14/03/2019 10:23

People here don't "think it", it's true as a matter of employment law. Okay.
I would assume that a cleaner wants to be self-employed for the flexibility. Do they really have flexibility though? Can they really regularly change the day and time they work?
The bit I never understand with this situation is that years ago the deal with self employment (or agency work) was that whilst the job may have no security or benefits , the pay was higher to compensate, why doesn't this work with cleaners?
Exactly. Self-employed with no benefits and no security, and no relatively high pay to compensate for that.

PenelopeFlintstone · 14/03/2019 10:27

I don't think it's the same as a hairdresser though because if they've got a salon they can get walk-in customers.
And, where I live, music lessons, dance lessons and tutoring are paid termly which I think is more respectful to the teachers.

Lweji · 14/03/2019 10:37

Do they really have flexibility though? Can they really regularly change the day and time they work?

Exactly. Nobody would have a cleaner that kept changing hours or cancelling.

HeronLanyon · 14/03/2019 10:37

I think YANBU. BUT nor is she.
Things change. Totally understandable that during house move things become a bit disrupted. I understand her thinking about the deep clean needing to be done by a company. Would have been a good idea for her to ask if you could do it and formyou to
Ask if she needed it and how could you make it work together. What a shame you didn’t do this.
She doesn’t at all need to pay you for work not done. In the circs I would pay you that weeks money as a goodwill kind of respect and wanting to keep arrangement going.
Reduction in hours - that’s her choice and I wouldn’t take this personally.

Two big things - if you feel you ‘forced her hand’ about paying for work not done - then she probably will too. If I were her I’d be really unhappy about that. If I were her family I’d be hopping mad (even over a small sum). So if I were you I would say ‘thinking about it that seems wrong - if ckurse I won’t charge For work I don’t do- not sure how We got there’
Properly offer to do the big clean/ explain you’ve done a lot of it already and would it be better to cancel Company and you could do it ?

Waspnest · 14/03/2019 10:57

Well assuming that you can come to an agreement with a client I think it's flexible compared to a job where you absolutely have to be somewhere at a certain time e.g. teaching. Working for an agency is possibly more flexible (I don't know really, I'm not a cleaner) because you can presumably pick and choose jobs (PIL don't always get the same cleaners from their agency) but obviously the pay is lower because of fees.

PCohle · 14/03/2019 11:14

I don't think it's true that cleaners "want" to be self-employed per se, but is the nature of the job.

I'm sure there are some office workers who would like to be self-employed but it's just not particularly common/feasible in certain roles or industries.

Waspnest · 14/03/2019 11:34

Yes I agree because they'd end up with loads of employers who probably don't want the responsibilities of being an employer. It would be chaos on both sides.

With agencies it may be trickier because of all the cases like Uber and care workers going through courts in recent years.