Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU or have I talked an elderly lady into paying me for not working?

296 replies

AutovillaGirl · 13/03/2019 09:07

I work as a cleaner and I've been cleaning this one particular lady for 2 years. She's 85, very sharp, very active, very wealthy. She's moving house in 2 weeks but she told me yesterday that she was getting a cleaning company in to do the final clean of her house and so she didn't want me to clean that week and so I will not get paid. She said it would be "too much for me" - as well as the whole house she wants the empty cupboards cleaning, etc. I'm put out by this as A) it wouldn't be too much for me - I've known about the move for months so each week I've been doing extra 'deep' cleaning in certain rooms and moving what heavy furniture I can to clean behind to make it easier for myself (I thought) to do the last clean. Instead I've been making it easier for the cleaning company who will get paid, not me. B) also put out that I won't get paid for that week, I rely on my money and can't afford to miss that money.

So when I said to her that I was concerned about losing my money that week, she went on to say that my usual day was not convenient anyway as she had removal men coming in that day to start packing crockery and paintings. When I said I didn't mind working around them she said well maybe I could move one of my other clients and come a different day (but why should one of my other clients be put out?). Anyway, after a while she said for me to not come that week but grudgingly agreed to pay me for that week. Then as I was going she said "by the way, when I move house, my new house is smaller, so I'll only need you for 2 hours not 3" which I was surprised about as it's only a tiny bit smaller. My husband said I shouldn't have really asked for the money as it's up to her whether she wants me to come or not. But none of my other clients have ever done that to me, I'm reliable, thorough and punctual and rarely have a day off and they let me know they appreciate me. But have I talked her into paying me when she didn't really want to?

OP posts:
BlackCatSleeping · 13/03/2019 12:15

As I said, I'm self-employed and I wouldn't expect to get paid.

I don't have a cleaner, so am not treating anyone like crap.

If I had a cleaner, I don't know. I would expect a cleaner to have a clear contract which explains the terms and conditions of employment.

I think this is one of those things that splits opinions on Mumsnet, like shoes off in the house or saving tables at cafes.

Springwalk · 13/03/2019 12:27

If you are employing people to clean, the onus is on you to treat them with respect, and that means paying them if you need to cancel at the last minute.

Why should the cleaning lady be deprived of a wage because the plans have changed through no fault of her own? I just don’t understand why anyone thinks that is fair.

Especially as they are on a low wage, and typically very much need the money. It is exploitative.

BluebellCockleshell123 · 13/03/2019 12:27

I have had cleaners for several years. The arrangement has always been that if the cleaner cancels then she doesn't get paid. If I cancel then the cleaner still gets paid. Why should she lose income because it doesn't suit me one week? Tbh I don't think any cleaner round here would stay with a client if they cancelled and didn't pay.

Our cleaner comes in even when we're away on holiday. If we're away for extended time then she does more in depth cleaning or some ironing.

LazyLizzy · 13/03/2019 12:32

I think you are cheeky.

Current house either:

  1. Takes 3 hours to clean therefore you have neglected your normal clean to start deep cleaning other areas. (Meaning you could take shortcuts on 'final cleaning day'.)
  2. Does not require 3 hours cleaning. So new house won't require 3 hours.

She gave you 2 weeks notice.

Why would she have a cleaner in while the movers are there?

I think you've burned your bridges.

NicoAndTheNiners · 13/03/2019 12:34

I think it depends how fixed/flexible the arrangement is.

I have a dog walker who comes between 3 5 times a week depending how many days I'm working from home. So I only pay her the days I use her. If I have a week's holiday I don't pay her anything.

However if I'd arranged a day for her to come and cancelled her at short notice I would still pay. She also had a period where she was sick for a few weeks and I still paid her then as I was worried about her loss of income.

pallisers · 13/03/2019 12:35

I have a cleaner and a dog walker. If I cancel, I pay them anyway.

How would a cleaner manage her jobs/income stream if on a week's notice someone could cancel and not pay. Surely cleaners need to know what their work/income is like everyone else. If you have clients who can cancel at will, you could have a week where you don't get paid at all. The agreement is "you come once a week and I pay you until I tell you the arrangement is at an end". If you want to be able to cancel and not pay at will, you should engage a cleaning company who will let you organise a cleaner when you feel like one.

HolyForkingShirt · 13/03/2019 12:37

If you are employing people to clean, the onus is on you to treat them with respect, and that means paying them if you need to cancel at the last minute.

Firstly, the client is not employing the cleaner, she's using her services as the cleaner is self-employed.

Secondly, 2 weeks is not last-minute.

eastwestnorth · 13/03/2019 12:40

It depends what you call last minute notice.
For the sake of good relations with a reliable cleaner of two years, I'd have paid, but I don't regard two weeks' notice as last minute.

User6949671 · 13/03/2019 12:45

The lady asked her to come in and do a job. She needs to pay.
I'm self employed, I have my hours sorted at the beginning of the month and send an invoice accordingly. If the client doesn't need my services, they still pay. If they cancel with less than 24 hrs they pay a late fee.
Your income shouldn't be at any one else's beck and call.

Alsohuman · 13/03/2019 12:50

Everyone’s income is at someone else’s beck and call to a degree. Especially those who are self employed.

roundturnandtwohalfhitches · 13/03/2019 12:50

This is about respect for people who work for you. You cancel I think you should pay. Cleaning is not the world's most glamorous or well paid job. I wouldn't go back OP. Find a client wo treats you better.

gamerchick · 13/03/2019 12:58

My housekeeping lady comes three times a week. If SHE cancels I don’t pay, if I cancel then I would offer to pay. It’s not fair that my lady would be out of pocket because of a change to my plans

Well this how it should be tbh. But these threads ways go the same way. It depends on how you view the minions really. Grin

I would pay if I was cancelling anything and that goes for most things. If they cancelled, I wouldn't. It's not that hard.

pollyname · 13/03/2019 13:00

OP I think you need to work on your communication - be clear with your clients about what notice you require and whether you need to be paid if they are away etc. Don't be afraid of setting out terms, it avoids this awkwardness. Could you do a 'deep clean' for another client if you have a gap one week? This is what my cleaner does. Or could you have offered to clean her new place before she moved in?

I personally would go back to her and offer to clean her new place before she moves in or let her off for that week and be clear you require 'x period notice' or she will be charged.

JulianDickGeorgeAndTimmy · 13/03/2019 13:09

This is the risk of being self employed. You are providing a service and there is no guarantee. You are not employed and I don't think she should have paid you. However, of course, the risk is she loses you because you go off and offer your services elsewhere

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 13/03/2019 13:20

So who decides which self-employed person should be paid when not doing the work and who doesn’t need to?
I’m self-employed, I don’t get paid when the client cancels. If I’m away or ill and not earning I can’t afford to pay the cleaner. Confused

shiningstar2 · 13/03/2019 13:21

i thought that the general rule was that if the cleaner cancels she doesn't get paid. If the client cancels, especially at short notice, the cleaner still gets paid. The people I know who have a cleaner usually pay her if they go on holiday and don't want her in but don't pay her when she goes on holiday.

TitusP · 13/03/2019 13:28

Those saying they would pay when they no longer need someone's services, how long would you pay for? 2 weeks? A month? A year?

OP has not said she has a specified notice period. The legal statutory notice period for people in employment (which the OP is not) is 2 weeks for people employed up to 2 years. So using this as a basis, 2 weeks notice seems more than reasonable. I don't think the OP's client has in anyway been unreasonable here and has been harassed by OP unnecessarily.

ChocChocButtons · 13/03/2019 13:37

My cleaner was ill last week so she didn’t come. I didn’t pay her as she didn’t come.

NuffSaidSam · 13/03/2019 13:56

'So who decides which self-employed person should be paid when not doing the work and who doesn’t need to?'

I agree there isn't one clear rule for everyone. It a bit like tipping. Or Christmas present/bonus.

I think generally....if it's low paid you tend to pay a self-employed person when you cancel. Also, factor in how easy it is for them to find other work to fill that slot. How much notice they've been given that you wouldn't need them. It's not straightforward.

NailsNeedDoing · 13/03/2019 14:01

So rude of you to do this to someone with no notice. If you'd expected to be paid just to keep a slot open despite doing nothing to earn the money, then you should have made that clear when the lady first started using your service. This is just a normal part of being self employed. I do some self employed work, I charge a decent rate exactly because I don't get holiday or sick pay, but I'd never expect someone to pay me for nothing. It's not an employment contract.

I've known about the move for months so each week I've been doing extra 'deep' cleaning in certain rooms and moving what heavy furniture I can to clean behind to make it easier for myself (I thought) to do the last clean. Instead I've been making it easier for the cleaning company who will get paid, not me.

This is the bit that makes you sound very grabby and unprofessional. Did you mean that you have been doing extra as in staying for extra time above the three hours that you normally do? If not, then you really haven't been doing any extra, just cleaning as you are paid for. If you've managed to fit in this 'extra' in your normal time, then you must have been slacking and have taken advantage of an elderly persons inability to clean for themselves.

Tinyteatime · 13/03/2019 14:04

This is just part of being a self employed cleaner I’m afraid. I sometimes have to skip weeks if my client is away and doesn’t need my services that week. I certainly wouldn’t have pushed in the way you did. It’s perfectly reasonable to give you notice if she doesn’t need you or needs you less, and I would consider 2 weeks to be a reasonable amount of notice.

Waspnest · 13/03/2019 14:10

So does no-one who employs a cleaner on MN actually have a written contract with them i.e. one that states when they will and won't get paid? As I've said I don't have a cleaner and couldn't justify one anyway but if I did I'd rather have a professional relationship with them (probably through an agency) so that I knew they were DBS checked and so that we both knew where we stood with regards to holidays, cancellation etc. The lines between cleaners/clients on MN always seem to be really blurred to me (and that seems to cause numerous problems as seen on thread after thread).

ILoveMaxiBondi · 13/03/2019 14:13

The lady asked her to come in and do a job. She needs to pay.

No she didn’t! She told OP she didn’t need her but OP insisted she needed paid regardless!

cloudymelonade · 13/03/2019 14:27

YABVU. You are providing her a service and she does not require that service right now.

If I cancel my cleaner with less than 48hrs notice, I have to pay a fee but other than that, there are no obligations. Same with hairdresser, window cleaner, manicurist etc

LooksBetterWithAFilter · 13/03/2019 14:35

If you had written the same op but changed cleaner to child minder or just about anything else you’d have got very different answers from most but people look at the word cleaner and mentally put the word only in front of it. Like you don’t deserve to be paid for your time.
My dad was self employed in a much more esteemed job and if something similar happened to him at short notice the client would still be billed because he had booked out that time for them.
In this instance she didn’t require you, you were ready and able to work, you cannot fill that time for one week so she should pay you.
I think you need to get a simple contract for future clients laying out notice for changes to hours, cancellation policy etc.
As for the hairdressers comparison I know plenty beauty places that take a deposit that is non refundable if you don’t turn up or cancel less than 24 hours before.