Tonight’s Brexit Vote, they don’t want a referendum?

[Thadeus]

Am I the only one surprised to hear that when it was put that there could be a second referendum the shouts of no overwhelmingly outweighed the yes’?

"This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

Which was a promise that Cameron wasn't in a position to make. The best he could have done was said, I will ask Parliament to implement what you decide. Which might have led to a very different Withdrawal Agreement. Or a Norway + deal with a Customs Union, but still keeping the opt out of the Euro and Schengen might already have been agreed, and implemented.

Brexit is perfectly deliverable, it's just that the self-interested politicians are either inept, only looking after their own interests or out to sabotage the opposition so the best possible version of Brexit is not their first priority.

What is the "best possible version of Brexit"? Does it protect the economy and the Good Friday Agreement? Does it put us in a better position than we are in as part of the EU?

If yes, why isn't it being done?

If no, what are the advantages of doing it and how do those advantages compensate for the damage done in the process?

How to contradict yourself in one paragraph

Where is the contradiction?

@MuseumofInnocence

You say "I think there are very few people who are not intelligent enough to vote the right way"

But then say "I think there are quite a few who are not educated enough..."

Like in your previous post where you start by saying (paraphrased) 'We shouldn't call Leave voters stupid' and then try to justify doing just that.

Intelligent and educated are not the same thing.

@PBo83

You misunderstood my point. But your error has already been pointed out to you

if it was said before a referendum this is only advisory ( ie we can ignore result) what would be the point in voting?

if there is a second vote it needs to be
a/ leave with no deal world trade terms
b/ leave with the deal as negotiated
c/ revoke and remain but accept further integration is what will happen it is not status quo

with preferences 1/2/3 count all 1st pref is one has more than 50% that's it, if not count all second votes as 0.5 of a vote is anything over 50%? final vote 3rd pref as 0.25 of a vote

some would say as we have already voted leave a new referendum should only be options A and B; others would prefer option A wasn't there but I think it has to be even if I would not vote for it

If Referenda are advisory, which this one was, and it was said before the vote, it gives Parliament a clue as to how the country thinks on a single issue, in a way that a GE can't. It showed that the country was divided.

Your point
c) revoke and remain and thus continue to have a vote, which would include that of further integration was desirable.

To those saying remain and reform, which I've seen bandied about a fair bit, how likely is that going to be? Given that there is no consensus across Europe how that reform should be actioned. The way that the EU is structured makes effective reform almost impossible. From what I've read, once a treaty has been passed its hardly ever able/likely to be changed, due to the defensive, conservative nature of the Union. I think the EU would need to be dragged kicking and screaming towards reform.
Do people see that as a good thing?

@Teacup

We had a referendum. We voted to leave by a very slim majority. (When all's said and done it was almost 50:50.)

Theresa May has gone away and negotiated a deal which, whilst not exactly a good deal for the UK, would have the effect of delivering the result of the referendum including ending free movement of people (which is devastating to many remainers but apparently very important for leavers), whilst also respecting the 1998 referendum on the Good Friday Agreement and the international legal commitments the UK entered into on the back of that referendum.

That deal has been voted down by parliament.

In particular, it was voted down by the DUP and the ERG, the most committed of hard Brexiters who have voted it down because it is not Brexity enough for their liking.

If the hard Brexiters and the DUP got behind Theresa May and voted in favour of the deal (bearing in mind that the DUP were given £10 million of OUR MONEY less than two years' ago in exchange for their support), there would be no question of Brexit not happening.

I really don't get why leavers still believe that it is remainers who have sabotaged things.

c/ revoke and remain but accept further integration is what will happen it is not status quo

Cameron negotiated an opt out from further integration back in 2016.

The way that the EU is structured makes effective reform almost impossible. From what I've read, once a treaty has been passed its hardly ever able/likely to be changed, due to the defensive, conservative nature of the Union. I think the EU would need to be dragged kicking and screaming towards reform.

I'm not sure this is true, and it doesn't fit with the narrative we often hear. While it is never easy to reform any large organisation, the EU has had several significant reforms and changes (Maastrict, Lisbon Treaty, the accession of Eastern European Countries).

The EU can't be both impossible to reform, and at the same time, a juggernaut that members are powerless to stop.

I learn more from these Brexit threads about Brexit than nearly anywhere else. There are some seriously intelligent arguments on here and is why I love mn.
In order of preference for me;

1. New referendum and remain wins
2. Theresa May’s soft Brexit deal
3. Armageddon
4. Spice Girls do ANOTHER comeback tour
5. No deal

At this point we could just get the Spice Girls to renegotiate the WA?

Tell you what I want what I really really want, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna really really really really banging Brexit deal!

Yeah that would probably work a lot better as a negotiating strategy tbh.

And it is undeniable that significant components of the Leave campaign was based on lies and myths, which those less able to discern facts from lies were more likely to accept as true.

Exactly - but not only that. The lying, soundbite, oversimplified campaign tactics were designed to appeal to people with less education and knowledge, and who were in greater need of change.

Who really needs the NHS to keep them alive and has the most contact with it? Poorer and less educated people, because they have worse living conditions, worse health and less money on average. And older people, who are more likely to be unwell.

Who perceives themselves to be most negatively affected by immigration? Poorer, less skilled people.

It's not just this referendum either - the tories and the right have always used these issues to appeal to poorer, less educated people who are being shafted and want change. But they are being shafted by the Tories, not by the EU or immigration.

I don't want another referendum. There are two easy solutions to this mess:

One is revoke Article 50.

Ok not so easy.

The second is to agree that he UK will stay in the EU customs union. This will resolve the issues of the Irish and Gibraltar borders. And it also works for people who voted to leave the EU because they were happy with a common market but less happy with the political union that the EU has become. I am really struggling to understand why this cannot be an option, except that it stops Liam Fox prancing around the world making his non-existent trade deals.

And just because an individual is highly educated and clever and still wants Brexit, doesn't change the fact that on average it appeals more to people who have less understanding of what it really means.

Jacob Rees Mogg and Nigel Farage know it will shaft the poor, they just don't care because it doesn't affect them and they can afford to be right-wing ideologues.

I think another referendum is probably exactly where this is heading, tbh.
-Reject "No Deal"
-Vote yes for "more time please"
-EU then stick with their line that they'll only give us more time if it's for a meaningful purpose (their exact wording escapes me!), which crystallizes rapidly in to a delay to allow a second referendum
-second referendum takes place offering either remain vs no deal, remain vs may's deal, or some sort of transferable vote situation with all 3.

I don't actually see any other real alternative. I don't think a General Election would solve it as even if Corbyn won it's unlikely that he would be able to command a majority to vote for any particular deal either. The EU isn't going to give us more time unless we are offering something dramatically different in our approach.

Can't we just record the arguments in the house of commons and play them on a loop like they did in the film Speed and just pretend we left?

"if you can't explain it to a six year old you don't understand it" given that the leave camp have had two years to explain why and have failed then its reasonable to assume they don't understand why and should forfeit the right to inflict it on us.

It was less legally binding than the X factor vote FFS
Still wins the thread

Can't we just record the arguments in the house of commons and play them on a loop like they did in the film Speed and just pretend we left?

I’d vote for this

Seriously though, I’ve been saying for a while now that it seems as though parliament do not want Brexit and are taking every possible scenario to the nth degree so that remain is our only option.
Theresa May’s deal no 1. - rejected
Vote of no confidence - rejected (TM stays in)
Theresa May’s deal no. 2 - rejected
No deal Brexit will be rejected
Another general election will be rejected

Then the only option we are left with is a referendum. They’ve stalled and stalled and left it to the last minute to sway public opinion to hopefully get the result they want. They’ll delay article 50, announce another referendum in 6 months or whenever... the public will be even more sick of hearing about Brexit and the result will be remain.

That’s my prediction. And the whole thing will have been one big waste of time.
Although as a remain voter, I won’t hide my relief, I will feel bad for the leave voters who didn’t vote out of ignorance!

It wasn't a democratic vote. Apart from the fraud, apart from the fact that the most affected people (Europeans in the UK and long-term Brits in Europe) were excluded from the vote, a significant number of British voters in Europe (almost all Remain) were excluded de facto when their ballot papers turned up too late.