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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Tonight’s Brexit Vote, they don’t want a referendum?

272 replies

Thadeus · 12/03/2019 19:44

Am I the only one surprised to hear that when it was put that there could be a second referendum the shouts of no overwhelmingly outweighed the yes’?

OP posts:
TonightJosephine · 13/03/2019 22:23

How many humans do we throw under the Brexit bus?

Xiaoxiong · 13/03/2019 22:25

Desperate, if France is falling short they will have to find a more politically palatable way of meeting those goals, or they will be fined or sanctioned. Each country decides how they will meet the targets by having their own domestic policies, France already has the least carbon intensive grid thanks to their nuclear fleet so they are having to make changes elsewhere which obviously voters thought better of after he was elected. Transport accounts for 30% of European admissions so it was always going to be a target, but increasing fuel costs to pay for things like renewables are obviously a visible issue at a time when people are not seeing their wages rise. So: switch everyone to electric cars where they won't need to pay for fuel but need to switch over (£££ and downsides to EVs), increase people's wages so they can pay extra fuel duty (easier said than done), subsidise fuel prices somehow for people in rural areas (difficult and doesn't address emissions), increase emissions standards (burden on car manufacturers) etc etc etc. All these policy decisions have knock on effects, unexpected consequences, etc. But the key thing is that each country decides for itself what it is prepared to do politically, and Macron just obviously didn't sell it right to his voters and they went gilet jaune on him. Doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do to have common emissions targets - Parisian smog affects London and vice versa.

Justheretogiveaviewfrommyworld · 13/03/2019 22:27

All I care about re a second ref is that the result will be listened too either way, we can't just keep having the damn things!

Xiaoxiong · 13/03/2019 22:41

Also Desperate of course I know that some countries are refusing to take refugees in defiance of EU decisions, those countries are also by and large the least equipped to deal with mass migration and resettlement and so I think the fairest solution is for the EU as a whole to decide how to fairly share this burden, because otherwise the frontier states will bear the whole burden of people coming in, and other areas will have people disproportionately trying to settle there. I don't understand how that is casually shrugging in the face of human misery to say that there is no easy solution and everyone is going to bear some burden of this, and the easiest way to decide that is via a democratic process of decision making. It's a problem that when you live somewhere nicer, safer and with better opportunities without bombs raining down, people are going to risk their lives to get here.

I grew up in a small place next to a very large communist country. Our next door neighbor growing up had parents who swam for hours through shark infested waters to escape. People do what it takes to survive. Until places like Syria and Afghanistan are safe, and places like Nigeria and Mali have more economic opportunity, there will be people trying to come here for a better safer life and we need to figure out how to deal with them fairly and equitably while helping their countries become safer and more economically self-sufficient.

TheRealBoswell · 13/03/2019 22:46

Just imagining people bussed in to march for 20 mins... back on bus to march 10 mins to the end

@Desperateforspring

Maybe they can use this? And perhaps Boris, Farage et al can jump on board as well? It makes sense for them to use one of their Brexit campaign buses if they do go on a march.

Tonight’s Brexit Vote, they don’t want a referendum?
Weetabixandshreddies · 13/03/2019 22:54

A legally binding opt out is a legally binding opt out. We could never have been forced to join the euro and anyone who says otherwise is talking utter nonsense. That's the REAL "Project Fear", right there.

And what stops the other member states deciding that they will change the rules? What stops them deciding that the eurozone countries will form an inner circle, with preferential terms around trade or reciprocal deals, and then those not in the euro will form the second tier? So they don't compel us to join but just make it nigh on impossible not to. All the while knowing that they have us over a barrel of not being able to leave?

You're thinking of it only in terms of what has previously been agreed, not what could change in the future.

TonightJosephine · 13/03/2019 23:02

Because that's not how it works. The kind of structural changes you are talking about would require treaty change. It's not something that could be forced on us.

You are wasting time and energy worrying about hypothetical things which you believe might have happened if we had remained but can't explain how they could actually have happened and not worrying about the very real, immediate and far more severe consequences of Brexit. All whilst accusing other people of not having properly informed themselves.

It's astonishing.

BlimeyCalmDown · 13/03/2019 23:13

I live in hope...

Weetabixandshreddies · 13/03/2019 23:18

The kind of structural changes you are talking about would require treaty change. It's not something that could be forced on us.

I didn't say it could be forced on us. But it could be structured in such a way that it would be too detrimental to say no.

aaeg22 · 13/03/2019 23:56

The only referendum we should now have is
full EU integration v No deal.
A proper discussion on Fully In or Out.

As of 22019 with QMV the EU will be setting Tax rates by 2025. VAT, Financial Taxes, Green Taxes across the whole EU. No Veto available.
Following Tax it will be applied to Foreign and Security Policy., presumably including Nick Cleggs mythical EU Army. No Veto available.

If a second Referendum happens and the UK Remains, and accepts the EU is in future setting our Taxation and Foreign Policy, then we may as well be fully integrated into the EU project including the Eurozone as a country can't truly run its own economy when it no longer controls its own Taxation. Or the Uk leaves.

That is what our elected MP's should be discussing rather than playing petty Party politics.

whosafraidofabigduckfart · 13/03/2019 23:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scaryteacher · 14/03/2019 00:34

Tonight I want to know when the Eurostar is going to be functioning properly again. I want to know when British people who live in one member state and work in another are going to have their residence and employment position clarified.

Eurostar hasn't functioned properly for years, so Brexit or not will make sod all difference to snow in Northern Frrance, problems on the line, strikes in Belgium, or work to rules in France., all of which have affected Eurostar in the 13 years I've been using it.

Depending which member state you live and work in, arrangements are in place for Belgium til the end of 2020 (nothing changes in the case of no deal or the WA), and the same I think for the NL. iirc, Spain has arrangements in place as well.

scaryteacher · 14/03/2019 00:38

Weetabixandshreddies

Happy to provide links to the programme of works and their annexes that I am currently working through to see what is on the books for the EU for the next few years.

I am still trying to find the stuff about the changes to inheritance rules, and state pensions, as the aim is to harmonise state pensions across the EU. If that means raising the level of pensions in Romania, then guess who'll be paying?

scaryteacher · 14/03/2019 00:41

TonightJosephine That is precisely how it works. I've copied below and articvle in the DT, as it's behind the paywall. You might find it enlightening...

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/28/eu-quietly-seizing-control-members-finances/

Over the winter, as Westminster argued about how and when to leave the EU, a vital development in Brussels went virtually unnoticed. Having failed for years to persuade sufficient Member States that the EU should become a fiscal union, in the days before Christmas the European Commission announced its intention that the EU, nevertheless, is in effect about to become just that.

Drawing on legal developments since the 1990s, the evidence tells us this became a two-pronged strategy following the UK referendum in 2016. The first part involves expanding the definition of State aid to increasingly include domestic taxation generally; the second, announced over Christmas, aims to remove the national veto over tax policy itself.

Given the broadly settled definition of State aid (the selective use of state resources to give companies competition-distorting advantages), this had been relatively little debated over the last decade. That began to change in the autumn, as the Withdrawal Agreement de facto committed the UK to harmonised State aid rules but without representation in the bodies that make them.

In this context, the impact of changes to the rules on what constitutes State aid is now becoming apparent. After the Commission failed over the last decade to get Member States to allow harmonised domestic taxation, EU institutions broadened the definition of State aid, which we note achieves a similar goal. The role of the ECJ, whose jurisdiction this will expand, has been crucial. In a recent Spanish case, World Duty Free Group SA vs Commission, it resolved to prohibit a policy treating overseas and domestic share acquisitions differently, with the same process clear in other cases. This means moving from a policy which had prevented ‘selective’ advantages, to one that will likely prevent tax cuts that might make sectors more competitive, or indeed other tax cuts.

Lacking representation, the UK is now liable to be a particular target under the Withdrawal Agreement, giving the Commission the means to do grave harm to the economy of a leading competitor.

The next revelation, directly targeting domestic tax policy, appeared over Christmas. The UK Government position had always been that under the EU law-making system, while the Commission alone may propose legislation, the Council (representing Member States) would retain national vetoes. This has been gradually abolished since 2000, however, to be replaced by Qualified Majority Voting (QMV), the veto remaining only for (most) tax issues. Now a consultation released by the Commission just before Christmas tells us that the EU’s main law-making body intends to scrap this last bastion of the national veto.

The proposal describes how the Commission Work Programme for 2019 will “streamline” decision-making, for “more efficient” tax law, by “removing the need for unanimous agreement by all countries”. The rationale is that with “no effective Single Market in taxation”, this contribution to President Juncker’s “Agenda for Jobs, Growth, Fairness and Democratic Change” will “give renewed momentum to the EU”.

As a non-legislative initiative, the change will not need the approval of the other EU institutions; given that Treaty change is not required, approval from all Member State governments will also not be necessary.

This drastic change is thus likely to happen, and already seems intended to lead to tax rises. The Commission could not help but make this clear in its consultation, stating that QMV is necessary because smaller Member States’ lower corporate taxes to attract investment equal “fiscal dumping” – or what others call worthwhile competition.

Smaller EU members are reacting with shock. With the lowest company taxation in the EU, at 9 and 12.5 percent, Hungary and Ireland, among others, have reason to fear an enforced loss of competitiveness. But as our research at European free-market think tank network Epicenter outlines, many will see that as exactly the point. The change is supported by France and Germany, where it is hard not to perceive a (short-term) advantage in smaller neighbours’ weakened capacity to out-compete relatively high-tax economies.

The consultation website crashed before the end of the feedback period (though this was later extended), and few believe that the Commission won’t get its way.

If this is the road ahead for the EU, this suggests an anti-competitive bloc in which smaller members’ competitive capacity is denuded to protect a sclerotic core, as a fiscal union hinders new companies at home and repels investment from overseas, leading to needless self-impoverishment.

Through domestic taxation, and the State aid rules to which the Withdrawal Agreement would subject the UK economy, the Commission quietly told us this winter which path the EU has chosen.

Dr Radomir Tylecote is senior research analyst at the International Trade and Competition Unit at the Institute of Economic Affairs

Weetabixandshreddies · 14/03/2019 00:56

Thank you aaeg22 and scaryteacher.

TonightJosephine · 14/03/2019 06:13

@ScaryTeacher, you realise you have just posted an article from the right wing press which has drip fed all kinds of project fear about the EU over the last four decades which highlights just how things can change in a way we might not like when we vote to remove our own influence over the decision making process?

TonightJosephine · 14/03/2019 06:16

Eurostar hasn't functioned properly for years, so Brexit or not will make sod all difference to snow in Northern Frrance, problems on the line, strikes in Belgium, or work to rules in France., all of which have affected Eurostar in the 13 years I've been using it.

This is bollocks. I used the Eurostar to travel between the UK and France on average once every 3 weeks between 2010 and 2017 (and once every couple of months since then) and the only time I have ever had any significant problems was at the height of the migrant crisis in 2015. The rest of the time is has worked perfectly well.

It is currently not working and has not worked for the last couple of weeks due to Brexit. I was supposed to be travelling to London tonight for a same day passport appointment tomorrow (because I can't afford to be without my passport for any length of time) and I cannot get there.

I've had to say goodbye to the £177 passport fee. Hey ho.

scaryteacher · 14/03/2019 11:38

Tonight As I subscribe to the DT, yes I realise it is not the Guardian (which is why I subscribe to the DT).

The Commission has proposed this change, 'As a non-legislative initiative, the change will not need the approval of the other EU institutions; given that Treaty change is not required, approval from all Member State governments will also not be necessary.' As the article states approval will not be necessary from Member States as there is no treaty change, so we had f - all influence over that decision making process anyway.

As for Eurostar, I use it often as well, as do my family, and in the last months trains have just been cancelled; or there have been strikes in Belgium, so Eurostar can't run, or strikes in France, so the trains don't run, or problems in the tunnel, and before 2010, there were problems with all the above, and the weather stopped the trains going through the tunnels.

You are evidently a committed Remainer, as I am a committed Leaver. I do not like the direction of travel; I do not want to be part of a USE, which is where this is heading, as I do not see the need for another layer of unnecessary government to be imposed on top of national governments. I have no issue with a trading relationship with the EU, but I do not see the need for a supra national authority imposed on top.

TonightJosephine · 14/03/2019 11:56

In the last few months the trains have been cancelled due to Brexit disruption. Over the last ten years they have generally been fine, apart from a couple of months in summer 2015. Which is exactly what I said.

TonightJosephine · 14/03/2019 11:57

And I don't care what you want, because you apparently want it no matter what the cost, which is not a rational way to make decisions.

AlexaAmbidextra · 14/03/2019 13:28

The first referendum was 67% remain, 32% Leave.

The 1973 referendum related to the then Common Market, a trading agreement between member states. We were not voting to cede sovereignty nor for the undemocratic, corrupt behemoth that we have today.

TalkinPaece · 14/03/2019 14:41

We were not voting to cede sovereignty nor for the undemocratic, corrupt behemoth that we have today.
At least the EU does not allow Bishops and Hereditary peers make legislation
which the UK does.

The EU has 33,000 civil servants
the UK has over 400,000

The UK is the money laundering capital of the world thanks to LLP and CFC rules that the EU plans to start overturning on 2nd April

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