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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Tonight’s Brexit Vote, they don’t want a referendum?

272 replies

Thadeus · 12/03/2019 19:44

Am I the only one surprised to hear that when it was put that there could be a second referendum the shouts of no overwhelmingly outweighed the yes’?

OP posts:
Weetabixandshreddies · 13/03/2019 21:21

Xiaoxiong

Thank you. It does beg the question though, what is the point, if the majority don't achieve them?

Surely there are more plans for the next 10 years than a nebulous employment target, emissions, r and d spending?

Keeprisinghigher · 13/03/2019 21:23

I don’t understand this at all now.

Weetabixandshreddies · 13/03/2019 21:25

I can see that they will revoke it and we will remain. Not because we want to but because it is not possible to leave, because of the GFA. So every other country in the EU could leave, apart from us unless I suppose Ireland leaves first and then we can leave.

That is not a good prospect.

TonightJosephine · 13/03/2019 21:26

No one actually seems to know what the EU is or how it works.

No, that is very clear from the quality of the debate.

I actually have a pretty high level of knowledge about the EU and how it works, but have I considered every tiny little issue? No. No one has. Not even the people who work for the EU know every tiny little thing.

As for an EU army, that's simply not something we could have been required to participate in against our will. The fact that people are still banging on about how they're worried about an EU army that doesn't exist, may never exist and which we wouldn't have to be a part of even if it did, whilst simultaneously being completely unconcerned about the prospect of a hard border in Ireland is completely insane.

Xiaoxiong · 13/03/2019 21:30

The point of the targets is to try and force governments to address the issues that are agreed to be a common goal across Europe. Different countries decide to address them in different ways but at least it forces everyone to address common problems, like climate change or unemployment or investment in infrastructure, rather than ignoring them or saying climate change doesn't exist. And there are sanctions if no action is taken or targets aren't hit. For instance, the Thames tunnel was built because e didn't hit our target for raw sewage flowing into waterways and we were facing a fine for dumping raw sewage. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/09/river-thames-pollution-european-union

No one actually seems to know how the EU works

Well, I feel like I do because I'm a naturalised British citizen and had to learn it all to take the citizenship test, I assume you lot all learned it in citizenship classes at school. And then again educating myself before the referendum, Wikipedia was quite handy plus the EU's own website, plus when I voted in the last European elections I researched to find out what I was voting for. It's all at the end of a google search. Here's a handy starting point, which breaks down the legislative/executive/judicial structures and what is reserved for member states. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuropeanUnionn_law

Desperateforspring · 13/03/2019 21:31

Gisella Stuart had a good Idea how it worked as well and it terrified her especially as she had experience of iron curtain.

I guess you interpret EU from your own perspective.
If you've worked for it and make money you will support it.
If you've experienced and seen the legacy of EU style government set up... you would run for the hills and demand political freedom.

Desperateforspring · 13/03/2019 21:34

Xia how has forcing former eastern bloc nations to take in millions of refugees worked? How has forcing Greece to punitive measures worked. . how has one leader in one country making a decision that's had a toxic effect on all the others worked.

How has the EU worked in the face of endless crisis?

Weetabixandshreddies · 13/03/2019 21:34

Xiaoxiong
Citizenship classes at school? 😅😅

I can find out the structure. I want to know what the plans are for the short to medium future.

I want to know what implications that will have for the UK.

And we might be told a EU army won't happen - I don't believe it.

Same as I don't believe that we won't be forced to join the euro within the next 10 years.

TonightJosephine · 13/03/2019 21:35

I have always found Gisela Stewart's logic completely incoherent. And then after the vote she was wringing her hands and going, "Oh no, how terrible that people's immigration status is uncertain due to Brexit blah blah blah."

Yeah, no shit Sherlock. You helped with that.

TonightJosephine · 13/03/2019 21:36

Same as I don't believe that we won't be forced to join the euro within the next 10 years.

What legal mechanism do you think could be used to force us to adopt the euro? Genuinely curious.

JocelynBell1 · 13/03/2019 21:36

Indeed, Desperateforspring, Gisella Stuart was born in Germany and in your eyes that automatically makes her an EU expert.

What nonsense you speak.

Xiaoxiong · 13/03/2019 21:44

Weetabix I'm not really sure what else to tell you apart from we are currently operating towards the 2020 goals, the 2030 goals are currently being decided by our elected MEPs and our elected leaders forming the European Council. The commission website sets out the main policy areas on the EU level if you really want to see every single policy for every area and it covers basically every aspect of our economy and common environment: ec.europa.eu/commission/index_en

Weetabixandshreddies · 13/03/2019 21:50

What legal mechanism do you think could be used to force us to adopt the euro? Genuinely curious.

I think will be force it by creating a 2 tier system. We will be forced to join or accept less favourable terms. They've proved now that we are stuck in there. We literally cannot leave no matter what they do so what choice would we have?

TonightJosephine · 13/03/2019 21:56

You didn't answer the question. I don't want speculation. I want to know how - legally speaking - you think they can force us to adopt the euro when we have a legally binding opt out from ever having to adopt it.

Songsofexperience · 13/03/2019 22:03

How has forcing Greece to punitive measures worked?

Greece managed to get its act together, whilst being part of the oh so evil EU

www.bbc.com/news/business-47547065

'most of the money came from the eurozone to total more than a quarter of a trillion euros.'

Songsofexperience · 13/03/2019 22:05

Don't pretend to care about Greece when you only use it as an example to serve your agenda.

TonightJosephine · 13/03/2019 22:07

Yeah I find it hard to believe that people who plainly don't care about people in Northern Ireland care soooo much about people in Greece. Hmm

Songsofexperience · 13/03/2019 22:07

Greece is a completely wrong example as we are not in the eurozone.

Desperateforspring · 13/03/2019 22:08

Gisella Stuart found too many similarities between former communist bloc and EU in its operation and execution.
. she doesn't like it from her perspective and having worked in it.

Posters on here will love the EU from their perspective.

SheWoreBlueVelvet · 13/03/2019 22:09

Songs right. Because no one ever does this.Why does caring make an arguement valid ?

Xiaoxiong · 13/03/2019 22:11

Desperate I think actually it's worked pretty well, on the whole, if the aim is to prevent war and to improve people's living standards over a timeframe of decades and half centuries.

The refugee crisis is a hard one because there is no easy answer. There's a reason there are economic migrants and refugees coming here, it's because it's a safer and better place to live with more opportunities than the places those people are coming from. When you have people drowning in boats and sneaking across rivers and in refrigerated lorries you cannot magic them away by not being part of the EU. Honestly the solution should be to make the places that people already are, safer and with more opportunities, so people won't come. The border states of the EU are some of the least equipped to deal with large numbers of migrants and refugees and yet they come and wash up on beaches and walk across borders. I don't think there is an easy fair solution to this problem except to work together (perhaps through an elected parliament and executive branch where each country sends elected delegates?) and each take a fair share of the problem, whether financially or resettlement or both. And long term, try to get people to want to stay at home by improving security and economic opportunity through international aid and trade.

Greece is another hard one because the effects of one country's financial mismanagement affects us all, not just in the EU but globally. Look at the Asian financial crisis caused by the Thai bhat collapse, Russia's bond defaults in 1998, the credit crunch in 2008 which really was the US and UK causing contagion elsewhere, Argentina in 2014. Greece has two main sectors of the economy, shipping and tourism, which were absolutely nailed by the 2008 crisis and it hit a country that already had huge debt and huge public deficits. They couldn't devalue their currency when the money stopped flowing in (via government debt) because they were part of the Euro. I think it was massively mismanaged because Germany was the largest creditor to Greece and really was their enabler - but that means next time, do better - don't let Germany have such a disproportionate role in internal EU debt, or to have such sway in the ECB, etc. These are lessons to be learned and rules to be changed and tightened.

Fundamentally, we humans, governments, bureaucracies learn by fucking up and trying to fix them. I refuse to say the EU as a whole is a failure because the rules and procedures, when tested, didn't work perfectly or even at all. That means we improve and do better next time. The history of Europe and our place in it is long and very very bloody, and we have a lot of collective challenges facing us like climate change - no one country can tackle that on its own and as a bloc we are stronger and can bring the world along with us. I really think the EU project is better with us in it and we are better in it not out.

Desperateforspring · 13/03/2019 22:11

Btw how are those broad EU goals being achieved in France.

Macron has had to renegade on eco promises due to mass political upheaval taking form of country wide rioting for months.

Weetabixandshreddies · 13/03/2019 22:12

You didn't answer the question. I don't want speculation. I want to know how - legally speaking - you think they can force us to adopt the euro when we have a legally binding opt out from ever having to adopt it.

So you couldn't answer my questions yet now feel it's ok to demand that I answer yours?

TonightJosephine · 13/03/2019 22:18

So you couldn't answer my questions yet now feel it's ok to demand that I answer yours?

But this is a really really basic thing. I don't think you have the right to criticise people for not being knowledgeable enough about the EU because they haven't spent time researching what is, let's face it, a fringe issue, when you don't know basic stuff like this.

A legally binding opt out is a legally binding opt out. We could never have been forced to join the euro and anyone who says otherwise is talking utter nonsense. That's the REAL "Project Fear", right there.

Desperateforspring · 13/03/2019 22:21

Xia you are aware that Eastern bloc countries who have massively benefited from joining EU have refused too take refugees and have patrolled barbed wire boarders to keep them out?

How many humans do you throw under the EU juggernaut whilst it works problems out? Causal shrug?

Yeah work problems out whilst people are dying at sea, whilst unemployment in EU has devastated generations, whilst countries fall into debt and reccesion and teeter on the Brink.

All the while the far right is gaining ground under EU rule and positively flourishing due to EU policies!!