to not understand why we haven't just sacked off Brexit?

[HeyNannyNanny]

Disclaimer: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I know this has been done to death so feel free to ignore if you're sick to the back teeth of Brexit shite. Please don't pelt me with buns and gin bottles for bringing it up. No snapping. No farting.

I don't live in the UK at the moment (though I'm British) so may well have a very skewed perception of the whole thing, but it seems that Brexit is hated by a shocking number of people, has managed to go spectacularly tits up before its even happened and whispers was arguably not wanted by the majority of the population anyway.

Every time I look at the news, there's further arm waving, frothing and photos of Theresa May looking like she's hoping for the ground to swallow her up, stories of the MPs rejecting this, the EU rejecting that, Nigel Farage doing something stupid, Boris Johnson nowhere to be seen etc etc.

But there doesn't seem to be an official suggestion that we just...don't do it.

Have I missed something? Is there some reason why the Government is battling on ahead with such a shit show, when there is a (seemingly) perfectly reasonable and easy alternative right there?

The UK has a mandate to leave. Two nations which make up the UK voted overwhelmingly to remain.

Only one of those nations has MPs which can make any difference at all to what is happening now.

10 DUP MPs have more power than any Scottish or Welsh MPs.

But aye, it's a great idea eh?

HeyNannyNanny
Don't see any fact based points in your op, just a lot of moaning that you dont like Brexit.

Walkingdeadfangirl what are the benefits of Brexit? Genuine question. Because I can't see any so I'm curious as to what other people might think they are.

37.5% of people who cared enough to vote, voted Leave, while 34.7% voted Remain. And who were enfranchised to vote. Many young people weren't.

The Government made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market and the customs union.

It wasn’t on the ballot paper so you can’t say that it was clear. It wasn’t.

It's blindingly obvious why we are going ahead with all this. Because, whether you or I like it or not, there was a vote and a majority voted to leave. Polls show that those people have not changed their minds. Any shift in people's voting intentions, tiny as it is, is down to people who didn't vote first time round now saying they support remain (though obviously no-one knows if they would vote a second time around).

That still leaves an enormous proportion of the population who would be very left very legitimately seriously pissed off if Brexit didn't go ahead. I just don't think having a vote and ignoring people is a reasonable option - how would you feel if it happened to you?

I voted remain, but I am not so entitled and arrogant as to think that everyone who voted remain is a dumbass like you, clearly do OP. There are very sound and legitimate reasons why people voted leave the EU.

Those sound reasons remain even though politicians have handled the been whole business utterly incompetently from Dave and George onwards.

Alexa I didn't swear at you so take your stinking potty mouth elsewhere.

I'm 55, voted Remain, I don't you to tell me what I see & hear in my own demographic.

As per, disparaging young people isn't ageism & doesn't trigger comments does it tho? 🙄

Hypocrisy abounds

I agree op. I’m not sure that a second referendum would produce a different result though. A lot of remainers seem disgusted with the way the EU has treated us or just want to get on with it now. Although I think that’s a ridiculous viewpoint myself and not an intelligent argument.

They turn up on all these threads with nothing to add other than “we voted to leave, neener neener”. Which they are entitled to do. But there is no advantage in conversing.

PaddyF0dder. So you think remainers come on these threads and post scintillatingly original comments? They too repeat the same old, same old. As you say, there is no advantage in conversing.

@Walkingdeadfangirl What are the advantages of leaving the EU? How will the UK benefit?

The Government made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market and the customs union. It also made it clear that they did not think this would be a good thing.

The government said that we could not end free movement (a key priority for leavers) without leaving the single market and customs union. But the leave campaigners (notably Boris Johnson who was widely expected to succeed David Cameron as PM) said that this was "Project Fear" and that we could have full access to the single market whilst ending free movement of people because the EU needed us more than we needed them. And apparently people were more convinced by the leave campaign than by the remain campaign.

In 2017 we had a General Election in which the campaigns of two parties: Labour and Conservative, undertook to leave - again, the single market and the customs union. Those two parties received 87.5% of the vote.

Hold up a minute.

Both promised to "respect the result of the referendum" and leave the EU. Only the Tories explicitly ran on a hard Brexit manifesto, and they lost their majority.

Many remainers grudgingly voted Labour to keep the Tories out in their constituency because they believed that a Labour Brexit would be less extreme than a Tory Brexit, and they are heartily fed up of this "87.5% voted for a pro Brexit party" bullshit.

If we had a proportional representation system then I daresay there would have been a lot more votes for pro remain parties, but we don't, so people have to vote tactically.

"The Government made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market and the customs union."

They most certainly did not make this clear. Quite the opposite, in fact.

There are very sound and legitimate reasons why people voted leave the EU.

I've yet to see any, and it's not for want of asking.

It wasn’t on the ballot paper so you can’t say that it was clear

In any election, the details of what you are voting for are not on the ballot paper. If voters want to know what they are voting for they have to seek out the information, or at least not ignore what is coming into their houses in print and via TV, radio and the internet.

Before the Referendum information stating the Government's case (remain) was delivered, at the taxpayer's expense, to every household in the land. The Government's case was repeated again and again by the press and the BBC. Do you think an essay, or series of bullet points on the ballot paper, would help those that couldn't hear the Government's case through other means?

It's just self-preservation on the part of the Conservative Party (though also applies to Labour). If the Tories don't go through with Brexit then part of their party will split off and they will lose voters (the ones who hate the EU/foreigners). I say they should just risk a second vote (one in which the people are told the facts rather than lies) and let the dice fall where they may, regarding whether the Tory Party survives. This would be right for the country. But instead, they stick to the Brexit plan because they are only interested in the survival of their own party.

its interesting to read the threads from 3 years ago.

people thought there would be much money for the nhs.
people thought there wouldbe great and easy trade deals.
they thought brexit would save trillions.
they thought turkey was about to join the eu.
they thought britain had no say in eu laws.
they thought there wouldbe less muslims.

they were wrong/lied to. most leave voters get that now.

but even so, some people have decided that even though they will be poorer, and have less rights, and they will jeopardise peace, they think democracy only means voting on something once.

yep, its weird.

Because democracy.

Yeah, you're right. Asking people if they still want what they thought they wanted 3 years ago would be undemocratic.

Would it bollocks. I think people who say that are just afraid it will be a different answer this time.

I have no idea how it would go another time. I think we have shot ourselves in the foot either way.

"The Government made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market and the customs union."

They most certainly did not make this clear. Quite the opposite, in fact.
^
It was not clear to me either. I heard lots on both Hard and Soft Brexit and learned about the Norway-plus model which I thought was the only Brexit solution that I saw as an acceptable compromise.^

*"The Government made it clear that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market and the customs union."

They most certainly did not make this clear. Quite the opposite, in fact.*

Agreed. I seem to recall hearing much of the Norway and Canada models... I don't recall hearing that "no deal" would be a good idea, or that we would be stuck in some half arsed no-man's land...

In any election, the details of what you are voting for are not on the ballot paper. If voters want to know what they are voting for they have to seek out the information, or at least not ignore what is coming into their houses in print and via TV, radio and the internet.

The information wasn't there though, because it didn't exist yet.

There was plenty of information about what remaining in the EU meant, and there were plenty of different opinions about what leaving the EU might mean.

What the government (i.e. Cameron and Osborne) said about leaving the EU was closest to the actual truth, in that they said we cannot have our cake and eat it, and in particular that we could not end free movement of people and still expect to have full access to the EU's single market. This was hotly disputed by the leave campaigners, who basically said we would be able to get anything we wanted.

Neither side adequately addressed the Irish border issue.

We were asked to choose between the status quo and a new thing which hadn't been planned or negotiated yet.

It has now been planned and negotiated, and so any further referendum would have more legitimacy because both the options would be clearly defined.

there is something quite mesmorising listening to brexiteers contort themselves. they now realise theyve voted to fuck the country - but they just cant quite let go of the glorious dream.

My MiL voted leave because ‘the foreigners have spoiled her lovely village.’
I really think you should have to pass some sort of IQ test to be able to vote.

@Hopelesscase28 Not as bad as some British pensioners living in Spain who voted leave because the UK is too full of immigrants...

HeyNannyNanny
We have been discussing the pros and cons of leaving the EU for years, if you can't see the advantages then obviously you don't believe we should be leaving and nothing I can say will convince you otherwise.

What is the point in me saying the EU is undemocratic and you saying no its not. We just agree to disagree.

It has now been planned and negotiated, and so any further referendum would have more legitimacy because both the options would be clearly defined.

I agree with this.