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Brexit - what is the point?

272 replies

Bearbehind · 09/03/2019 18:32

Theresa May is blatantly running down the clock in an attempt to force her Withdrawal Agreement through.

An agreeement which is the worst of all world because we are still tied to EU regulations with no seat at the table but it’s worse that our current deal.

If her deal is voted down then the next step is a vote to take ‘no deal’ off the table, which will almost certainly pass.

So what is the actual point at this stage?

What are people hoping will happen?

(MN - please do not banish this to the Brexit Corner - this is the biggest thing to affect the UK in a generation and it’s happening in the next 3 weeks)

OP posts:
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Maldives2006 · 11/03/2019 09:43

Yes!! Let’s become like all the other countries and pay increased trading costs. Who is going to for all the increased costs to businesses.

VladmirsPoutine · 11/03/2019 09:47

Theresa May tried to buy off the North with a measly £1.6 billion or thereabouts over a 6/7 year period. Good luck with that. All those leave-voting cities can wave goodbye to EU structural funds. Brexit is essentially turkeys voting for Christmas.

Maldives2006 · 11/03/2019 09:51

Were you alive in the 1940’s and 50’s? Seriously!!

HoustonBess · 11/03/2019 09:54

There is zero point.

I think lots of people calling for 'no deal' see that as an endpoint of the scenario. Actually that would be the very beginning, with negotiations on an actual trade deal with the EU to follow. Trade deals typically take a minimum of five years.

There's never going to be the moment of glory Leavers were promised, they're going to call betrayal for something, it might as well be for revoking or a second referendum as for a long and horrible process in which our economy is devastated.

Peregrina · 11/03/2019 12:29

Maldives - who are you asking about the 40s and 50s? I have been alive throughout most of the 1950s. As far as I remember it was very dull. I don't really remember rationing, but I do remember food being very monotonous, (but that might have been because DM didn't like cooking!)

My parents, (DM in particular) went on and on about the War. It took until about 1960 for things to start improving - new consumer goods came along, ITV spread nationally, people started getting cars. However, with the advent of the NHS, no one was now worried sick about Doctors bills, which had been the reality for so many pre-war, and I wonder just how many lives were cut short as a result.

transit007 · 11/03/2019 14:32

Actually Bulgaria and Romania were not allowed to send their nationals to the UK for six years after they entered the EU.

The UK may have had to,pay the US extortionate interest rates but at least it secured peace. The countries that were marched into etc didn’t contribute though just left to the Good old UK. So, from that prospect who are really our friends. No one.

The polish are going ho e as their country continues to offer improved benefits and new housing for its nationals, nothing to do with brexit, had it from the horses mouth here.

transit007 · 11/03/2019 15:56

This is why the Polish guys are on their way home. Not Brexit.

EconoMatters, Rethinking Europe PreviousNext

Poland Is Europe’s Growth Champion. Can This Continue?

Key elements of the Polish success story resemble that of the German post-war economic story, especially relying on social and economic inclusiveness as a driver of economic success.

By Marcin Piatkowski, February 17, 2019

Credit: fotorince Shutterstock.com
Takeaways

Poland is the fastest-growing large economy in the world among large countries at a similar level of development.
Key elements of the Polish success story resemble that of the German post-war economic story, especially social and economic inclusiveness as a key driver of economic success.
The key risk to Poland’s future is the weakening of the European Union. Without the EU, Poland would revert back to the dark periods of its history.
Poland was a perfect illustration of an extractive society. It was WW2 and the shock of communism that demolished the old structures and opened up society.
Polish society must remain inclusive. This is something that the current government, despite triggering domestic strife in other regards, has performed well on.

Amidst all the current political hoopla, the key story concerning Poland’s path over the past 30 years is not receiving the attention it deserves. The country has been recording high levels of growth since 1989 and is making strides in catching up with Western Europe.

The Polish economy has become a key European success story. Since 1995, Poland has also become the fastest-growing large economy in the world among large countries at a similar level of development. It is beating even the Asian tigers such as South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan.

The roots of success

What about the roots of Poland’s success? Do they offer lessons for its neighbors? And what must Poland do to continue its progress in the coming decades?

To get a sense of the historic achievement, it is worth recalling that, for most of more than a thousand years of its history, Poland (along with the rest of Central and Eastern Europe) was a perennial economic underachiever.

The country was essentially stranded on the periphery of the European economy. Internally as well, Poles never managed to pull together enough social consensus to create a dynamic economy.

Adam Smith, the venerable voice of market thinking, had derided 18th century Poland for not being able to produce “any manufactures of any kind, a few of those coarser household manufactures excepted, without which no country can well subsist.”

It is no surprise under those circumstances that Poland’s per capita GDP, measured on a purchasing power parity basis, from the start of the 17th century until very recently, almost never exceeded half of the average level of Western Europe.

And as recently as 1991, at the bottom of the post-communist recession, the average income of Poles plummeted to less than one-third of the real income of an average German (and to less than one-tenth in nominal terms).

At the time, Poles even earned less than the citizens of Gabon, Ukraine or Suriname. In 1989, there were hardly any experts who would bet any money on Poland’s future economic success.

Modern success

And yet, almost 30 years later, Poland has become by far the most successful economy in Europe. Since 1989, it has increased its GDP per capita by almost 150%, more than any other country on the continent.

By comparison, per capita incomes in the Czech Republic increased by only three-quarters, in Hungary by barely half, while the Eurozone’s performance improved by less than 40%. In purchasing power terms, Poland’s GDP per capita grew even faster from $10,300 in 1990 to more than $28,000 in 2018 (in 2011 constant dollars).

In 2018, the average level of income in Poland exceeded two-thirds of the average level of the Eurozone. That is an impressive achievement for a country that only entered the EU in 2004 and had to shed the painful legacy of decades of Communist rule (See Figure 1 below).

Little wonder then that Poland this year became the first post-communist country to join the FTSE Russell list of developed countries.

The roots of Polish growth

This success has occurred despite Poland having no natural resources. It is also based on real growth, as the country has managed to keep public and private debt levels low.

Better yet, economic growth has been such that it is truly a tide that has been lifting all boats. For the first time in Poland’s history, its economy is supported by an inclusive, egalitarian, well-educated and socially mobile society, which has allowed the whole population to flourish.

Indeed, Poland has been the only post-communist economy where incomes for the whole of society have grown faster than the G-7 average.

Unlike most other fast-growing economies around the world, Poland has achieved its remarkable catch-up with the West while being robustly democratic. This robustness is underscored by the fact that Poland has had 17 different governments from the left, right and center since the start of the transition in 1990.

But how did this thousand-year long economic laggard manage to step up and become Europe’s growth champion?

In a new book, I argue that after 1989 Poland was successful for the first time ever because it adopted good economic policies, including a deep economic reform in 1990-91, fast institution building, foreign debt restructuring, a boom in education as well as an open and transparent privatization process.

Crucial as well has been the fact that Poland, unlike most other Central and East European economies, did not produce oligarchs. At the beginning of the post-communist transition, it did not matter what last name one had, where he or she was from or what parents someone had. All of today’s billionaires in Poland are market-based and self-made.

What drove good economic policies?

Of course, the key question is this: If good economic policies drove good economic outcomes, then what drove good economic policies?

For most of its history, Poland was a perfect illustration of an extractive society. It was the Second World War and – above all – the shock of communism that demolished the old, feudal, pre-modern and harmful social structures, opening up society.

This newly emerged, socially inclusive society was not visible until 1989. It was buried under the distortions, dysfunctions and absurdities of a planned economy. But when real socialism collapsed, it established the foundations for the subsequent economic miracle.

And yet, this element should not make Poland’s performance so different to that of similar countries like the Czech Republic and Hungary, where people had been better off than Poland in Communist times.

Needless to say that all these countries, as well as the other ex-Warsaw Pact countries, shared a strong social consensus that their respective country should become like Western Europe and meet all the conditions to accede to the European Union as quickly as possible.

This is where the second – and perhaps decisive – element explaining Poland’s success comes in. Almost the entire transition period, including those 17 different governments, was based on the high quality of policymaking elites, especially finance ministers and central bankers.

Unlike their Eastern peers in Ukraine or Russia, for instance, Polish officials, even while representing quite different parties, knew exactly where they needed to be going.

It helped that almost every single economic policymaker in Poland after 1989 had studied in the West, learning modern economics. In contrast, until 2002, no Bulgarian minister of finance even spoke English, to give but one example.

Will Poland’s success continue?

As impressive as Poland’s ongoing GDP growth performance is — reaching 5% in 2018 and a projected 3.5-4% growth in 2019 and 2020 — Poland’s continued catch-up with the West will need to be supported by an upgraded growth model, which I call the “Warsaw Consensus.”

If the policies of the Warsaw Consensus were implemented, Poland ought to be able to grow at more than 3% per year and catch up with the West within the life of the next generation. Then, Poland’s miracle can continue.

For that to happen, Polish society must remain inclusive. This is something that the current government, despite triggering domestic strife in other regards, has performed well on. For example, it has introduced a child cash transfer scheme that has almost eliminated extreme poverty. It also increased the minimum wage and made taxes more progressive.

Polish-German “cross-border” learnings

In many ways, key elements of the Polish success story resemble that of the German post-war economic story, especially if one thinks of social and economic inclusiveness as a key driver of economic success.

Thankfully, the dynamics of economic history do not just move in one direction. For that reason, it is relevant to ask what lessons Poland’s recent experience and current performance now holds for the German and the Western European economy.

One key lesson is the importance of education: Today’s 15-year old high-school students in Poland are as well educated as their German peers, even though Germany spends more than 60% more on each student (in PPP terms, see Figure below).

Over the last 20 years, more young Poles have also studied at the university level than in Germany (see Figure 3 below).

Investment in infrastructure

The other lesson is the importance of investment in modern infrastructure: The level of Poland’s mobile broadband penetration, for instance, is higher than in Germany (Figure below) and the speed and the costs are lower, too.

The third lesson is the importance of open markets: Poland’s economic success is a blueprint for the win-win benefits of the EU single market. German exports to Poland are now more than twice as high as exports to Russia.

The benefits of open markets, supported by good economic policies, are also larger than the benefits of public subsidies: Eastern Germany, despite having received more than one trillion euro since the unification, has caught up on Western Germany less than Poland did with much less money (since its EU accession, Poland has received slightly more than 100 billion euro from the EU funds).

Conclusion

The risks to Poland’s continued success are well-known: Population aging, demographic decline, low level of innovation and low investment.

But the key risk to Poland’s future is the weakening of the European Union. Without the EU, Poland would revert back to the dark periods of its history and be relegated again to the periphery of the European continent, where it has languished for long centuries in the past.

Editor’s Note: This essay draws on “Europe’s Growth Champion. Insights from the Economic Rise of Poland,” Oxford University Press, 2018

TalkinPaece · 11/03/2019 16:11

Poles are going home
the UK does not have the workforce to do what they have been doing for the last 15 years
the UK is screwed

Meretricious · 11/03/2019 16:13

.

JRMisOdious · 11/03/2019 21:04

“TalkinPaece

Poles are going home
the UK does not have the workforce to do what they have been doing for the last 15 years
the UK is screwed”

Especially so if hundreds of thousands of elderly, increasingly infirm ex-pats who’ll rely on the NHS are forced to return to the UK in the the event of a no-deal: no right to remain is guaranteed in that circumstance. Lots of them voted to leave, estimated at 25-28 % from their comfortable villas where they imagined the impact wouldn’t be felt. Wonder if they’ll regret that decision when they get here to find no hardworking, respectful, cheerful Eastern European care workers, most of whom were educated to a high standard but who still took pride in the work they did: work which most British young people consider menial and beneath them.

transit007 · 11/03/2019 21:21

Well JRM
There are plenty of Portuguese here in Portugal that are happy to look after expats in their villas. Why would they want to come back to the UK? As you rightly point out the British youth are not up to the work probably preferring to use their degrees in the modern factories of today..call centres.

What will happen to the people in their 30s, 40’s and 50’s, I shudder to think.

Point is it’s not brexit that are sending people home, it’s their own countries becoming better off and good luck to them. Let’s hope they don’t all purchase German cars then go bust similar to that of Greece.

TalkinPaece · 11/03/2019 21:23

transit007
Have a wild guess why the Brits might have to come home from the EU
go on, think outside the box for a moment
hint: healthcare / pensions / workers rights / property rights

transit007 · 11/03/2019 22:46

Read the thread talk in peace.

Healthcare, no problem.

Some people Brits owned villas in Portugal for example prior to Portugal joining the Eu and actually when Portugal was a fascist country prior to the 1974 revolution.

If you are resident you should pay tax in the country where you are ordinarily resident. If you were a govt employee then you pay tax in the country where you worked in govt.

There was life before the Eu.

Please read the thread.

Peregrina · 12/03/2019 07:50

What exactly has been signed, legally, with respect to Portugal? Not pious words that 'we hope to do this, that and the other...'.

For example, I pointed this out on another thread, the UK Government says that pensions will continue to be paid. On its website, it says no more. What it does not say on the website is that they will continue to be uprated in line with UK payments. They could be frozen at the rate applicable at the date of departure, indeed, I expect that to be the default option.

Don't say this doesn't/won't happen because it already does with UK pensioners in Canada. (I am not sure about the position in NZ and Australia - it may apply there too.) Furthermore, there are no moves afoot to change this position, even though the Brexiters are now very fond of the white Commonwealth, and even though the amount of money which would be involved is modest in Government terms.

But this is getting too technical for some folks.

TalkinPaece · 12/03/2019 08:30

If you are resident you should pay tax in the country where you are ordinarily resident.
And those not earning and just scrounging off the state UK pensioners in Yerp should leave Grin

transit007 · 12/03/2019 09:01

Peregrina, we will never meet half way on this, but, at least I don’t try to belittle you, re, your final comment.

Pensions are not updated in NZ or Australia but they are in the US. They will continue to be updated in the EU up until 2020 further negotiations pending on upratings. This is likely to happen because of reciprocal agreements.

Failure to understand by people who wish to remain, is that negotiation is happening with different countries in the EU prior to the UK leaving the EU.

Meetings have been held with the British Consulate for expats all over Portugal. I can only use Portugal as an example as I attended. At the meeting in Lisbon, 3 members of the Portuguese parliament attended to allay concerns of expats and confirm they wanted expats to stay. There is already some discord with the EU as healthcare with continue with no change on a reciprocal agreement, you treat ours, we treat yours.

Again, I can only speak for this country. I saw my GP two weeks ago and have a consultant booked for 2/4. All operations have to be completed within a 26 week period or the NHS here give you a voucher to book privately...at the NHS cost.

Someone mentioned about elderly expats coming home, why would they? Based on the treatment here. anyway why shouldn’t they, afterall, they have paid into the system for many years.

transit007 · 12/03/2019 09:03

Honestly talk in peace
People paid in for their pensions (state) so therefore they should be entitled to them from the country they paid in. It’s not scrounging but you will get there one day.

Peregrina · 12/03/2019 09:17

I wasn't mentioning you, transit007 - the whole business of pensions gets too technical for a lot of us! But you chose to take it personally.

I didn't mention the US - I am well aware that there are other countries outside the EU where pensions are uprated because that country and the UK have made an agreement. I know that there are no plans on the table to talk about uprating ones paid in Canada. As you say, as far as the EU/UK is concerned - it depends on negotiations. As far as I am aware, nothing is agreed yet.

It might well be worthwhile for the UK to agree with Spain especially, to uprate pensions, or otherwise they risk a whole lot of pensioners being forced to come back. It doesn't work the other way, there are relatively few retired Spaniards in the UK, I understand.

I personally agree, anyone drawing a state pension has paid their contributions, so they should get back what they are entitled to, regardless of where they live.

Maldives2006 · 12/03/2019 09:37

As long as ex pats have private health insurance for whichever country they have chosen to live in

transit007 · 12/03/2019 10:03

Peregrina
I didn’t take your comments personally. I worked for the DWP for many years and laterally fraud. It is as you rightly say very technical. In Portugal, you cannot obtain a benefit until you have worked for 5 years. In the UK, as soon as you enter you can claim. This has been changed in recent years however, if you work you can claim and that is WFTC, which opens the doors to other benefits. The UK government tried to stop this being claimed but the European Parliament told them that if your own people can claim then so can all Europeans. This encouraged a huge influx of families whereas it used to be individuals who would send their money home. Obviously, the influx caused problems for health, schools, housing and benefits.

transit007 · 12/03/2019 10:07

Maldives 2006
I do not have private health insurance and don’t need it. Please see previous posts regarding my upcoming appts.

I have friends in NZ who also lived in the Maldives who had to have PHI, although, I understand that My friends have the same as all Kiwis.

JRMisOdious · 12/03/2019 10:21

Transit007

Point is it’s not brexit that are sending people home, it’s their own countries becoming better off and good luck to them. Let’s hope they don’t all purchase German cars then go bust similar to that of Greece.”

Fair point and improving economies around the world is nothing but good. However, in our particular circumstances, the exchange rate since the vote has an enormous amount to do with it, as has the nasty increase in racism since 2016. It’s nowhere near as economically advantageous to work here now: putting up with racism from locals who quite irrationally feel threatened by hard working Eastern European’s is one thing when you’re earning a good wage and able to send money home. Different story when as well as being made to feel you’re unwelcome, the value of your earnings has diminished considerably. Why the hell would you stay?

Your point about why on earth would ex-pats want to return to the UK? I agree, why would they if that’s the choice they’ve made? But in the event of no deal, they may find they don’t have a choice, it’s all up in the air in those circumstances, nothing has been agreed.

As for people in their 30s/40s/50s, again, agree with you. I shudder to think what’s going to happen to us all to in the event of no deal. Everyone, whatever their age. Our NHS will collapse if the brilliant European workers leave.

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