Nanny problem - dizziness

[Yoonie]

Dear all

Need some advice regarding a new development that concerns my 60year old nanny. When we hired her 6months ago, she was active, vibrant, full of energy and enthusiasm.

After Christmas, she was diagnosed with a dizziness problem (with severe headache and vomiting) and went 2-3times to the doctors to get tested. The blood results came back and she only informed me that there is no cure (no pill) she can take and that she just has to live with it. She has not been forthcoming with the medical condition since then.

Now, as I have had a lot of time after Christmas to stay at home, I noticed a big change in her activities with my 9months old baby. In the past two months, she has not gone out of the house with her. Except the two times that I insisted that she takes her out (it was such a beautiful day!). She went out reluctantly and cited that it is too cold for the baby and that her eyes were runny.

Her attitude has also changed a lot, before she was a positive and energetic person and now when I ask her to prepare meals for my 7 year old son, she insists that she cooks at home and bring them the next day. Once it took her over 2 weeks to bring the food to my son. That was not part of the deal and she asks to be compensated for the extra hours she spent cooking at her house too, which I did not ask. She can in fact cook while my 9months old baby is sleeping but she only does puzzles during the 1.5 - 2 hour nap which she takes two times a day. So I feel a little short changed. She also does not do any little house chores which are in her contract.

She also does not go to fetch old books from my 7 year old DS1, which is on the third floor of the house (town house), which puzzles me as I told her repeatedly that it will be good for DD2 to start to look at books. I suspect that she does not feel confident enough to walk up the staircase and back down.

After talking to my sister-in-law last week, who had an auntie with dizziness problem and stayed home 3 months after fainting, I got scared. I feel very uncomfortable leaving my very active baby in her care. I cannot leave the baby alone for 5minutes as she is crawling everywhere and trying to standing up every second. She can get into trouble any second, if unattended by an adult.

Lastly, when I asked her last week to accompany me and my DS1 for a swimming lesson (it was close to her husband's restaurant), instead of hanging around the swimming pool centre, she insisted on taking her to her husband's restaurant for 45minutes and for me to pick up my baby after the swimming lesson. This involved her driving my baby on the front seat of the car (which she does with her granddaughter, but I was too shocked to even respond). I think she is doing this to protect herself, and her not being forthright about her condition is making me paranoid and uneasy.

Please tell me if I am being paranoid or if I have start taking measures to let her go. My DH is very much against a dismissal based on her fitness to work. But I feel that I have to request from her doctor a written confirmation that she is able to carry on her work with her condition. Am I being too harsh? Please be honest with me. I want to hear your honest thoughts.

I was thinking a little bit more about the various posts regarding the relationship of the employer-employee this afternoon and realised that two things need to be mentioned to give context.

1. She came with glowing recommendations. I spoke to the two employers for over 30mins each about her and they both highly recommended her. One of the employer had her for over 12 years and took care of her two daughters who are now 12 and 18 and they still meet up. So I had no reason to think that I had to manage her closely. I guess in a way I trusted the two strong recommendations too much. One said that she trusted her like her own mother. That pretty much helped me decide to hire her.

2. The car seat incident happened this week Wednesday. We have just returned from a family event on Wednesday morning and had the dentist appointment at 2.30pm in the afternoon. I was so exhausted from the travelling with a baby in the airplane as she had been screaming continuously due to the turbulence. The swimming pool incidence happened last week on Thursday evening at 5pm, the day before we were due to fly out in the morning and in-between we were fully engaged with our family event. So had not had a time to digest or think about this issue deeply. My husband is not yet informed of these two incidences (car seat and seat belt). After these two incidences occurring in the last one week, I decided to take action as I have lost all confidence in her ability to provide the safety of my children, but I stopped myself in the tracks as 1) my husband is on business trip for three days (he will come home later) 2) I wanted to make sure that bringing up this illness was within my rights as an employer (and it turns out that it really isn't). so good that I am doing this right.

So everything is escalating so fast (basically since last Thursday) and I haven't had time to talk to any of my friends yet, as I wanted to reach a wider audience (thanks Mumsnet) and get as much and honest view about this as quickly as possible. This has truly been a great experience I should say. The amount of response and interest and experience on this matter truly blew me away. I will take action next week, as you have all suggested, this requires swift and bold action, but also a cautious one. so thank you so much for all of your comments. I will all let you know how I get on with it next week.

Tbh endangering your child by putting car seat in front and not strapping in and arguing point about not requiring seat belt when in back seat (causing you lack of confidence when you are not there), not taking baby out of house, leaving baby in child pen for excessive hours, not fulfilling housework duties, ignoring dS1, not preparing meals for children as per her contract- meaning that if you hadn't stepped in- her charges/your children would not have properly eaten....

Your summary of the issues I am facing is just spot on. Thank you for sharing this.

I am especially very grateful to the comments shared by those suffering from dizziness, or is disabled or is suffering from other illnesses. Thank you for sharing your insights. I now know that I am on the right side of this issue and it really helped me focus on the real issues (not performing her duties) as opposed to trying to understand the why's... I think the second part is almost irrelevant to some extent. It also made me make excuses for her time after time... and I was perhaps too accommodating and forgiving to the sense of being "pussyfooting around her..."

The last two incidences this past week (car seat & seat belts) were the nails in the coffin as they say...

@Yoonie you have my full sympathy as this is not an ideal situation to be in.

Imo you're within your rights to view this as potentially gross misconduct. And would a childcare provider employer accept this from staff and
still give 2 months paid notice or simply investigate and terminate for gross misconduct via that process?

In some ways as a smaller employer the expectations for realistic reasonable disability adjustments is far lower (if she had asked for those), but it's a moot point when faced with child neglect issues & substantiated
child safeguarding concerns.

Good luck @Yoonie , I hope your DH and you can get advice and act swiftly.

You need to follow through in not leaving her unattended with children in meantime as otherwise it might undermine your gross misconduct case.

Sack her off. As much as I sympathise with any illness, you cannot be sure that she isn't just taking the piss. As for glowing references, who knows what the real relationship is to the people you spoke to. Her actual performance or lack of speaks far louder! Many employees start of fairly good and then begin slacking. She has not been with you very long and not been fulfilling her duties longer than actually doing her job right. It probably is cheaper to just pay her the two months and get rid of her.

I’m sorry if this has been said I haven’t the energy to read through all the comments but just wanted to make sure it’s been pointed out that the 2 year rule for unfair dismissals is not relevant for cases of discrimination for example on the grounds of disability.
That doesn’t mean you can’t let someone go who can’t do the job - but you’d need to explore reasonable adjustments & whether with those they can do the role. I’d say she can’t - but just make sure you’re getting good advice because the absolute worst situation would be letting her go & ending up with an expensive tribunal payout - they can be multiple years’ salary.

Tbh I would just terminate her on the grounds of safety concerns regarding her lack of knowledge & adherence to the law in vehicles. Don’t even get in to anything else as it’s not required.

You need to follow through in not leaving her unattended with children in meantime as otherwise it might undermine your gross misconduct case.

Funny you mention this as I have intuitively just cancelled all my appointments for this and next week without considering the legal aspect of it. Have been staying home the last two days as I felt very uncomfortable leaving my DD alone with her. Just left home to pick up my son from school while the cleaning lady was home with them. I may ask her not to come in next week, or just half days (and give some excuses), while we figure this thing out. I had a hard time looking at her the last two days...

Tbh I would just terminate her on the grounds of safety concerns regarding her lack of knowledge & adherence to the law in vehicles. Don’t even get in to anything else as it’s not required

That might indeed be the way to go. Let me seek out some legal advise on this next week so that I am taking the right steps in following through with this.

As much as I sympathise with any illness, you cannot be sure that she isn't just taking the piss.

Was disappointed again today as she didn't follow through on one simple request, to prepare some mashed potato for the DD. I asked her at 1:30pm this afternoon (instead of feeding her mashed parsnip from last night as she got diarrhoea this morning)... When I searched for it during dinner time to feed her, I could only find the parsnip from last night. maybe she is slacking off and taking a piss.. phew...

@Makeitamazing puts it well, in a less confrontational way if prepared to pay in lieu of notice to get rid of her without extra stress.

I was looking up what constitutes gross misconduct in a nanny /au pair - this old 2011 MN thread popped up, where they discuss gross misconduct clauses in Nanny contract. It's worth a read just for information

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/childminders_nannies_au_pairs_etc/1318208-Gross-Misconduct

I hope link works

@OfftoBedhampton -thanks for the link. It works! Just read up on this and the bit about negligence and insubordination may be most relevant points in my case...

• Any negligent act or omission with the potential to endanger a child;
• Insubordination: failure to comply with any reasonable instruction given by the employer -
• Any other act or omission which may reasonably be considered by the employer as gross misconduct

I used to be a nanny and after a long time in a job the contract became null and void in that both sides did extras, asked for extras, were more relaxed as the relationship had built.

I think this bit is quite true in our case in that at the beginning of the relationship she put in extra effort which was why i was happy to be more relaxed about her neglecting the cooking and other duties... I had hoped that by putting up with a bit of slack now (dizzy) she will come around to being more “loyal and loving” to the kids/family in the long term to some extent. Guess that didn’t really work out that way in the end... Hmm

@Yoonie I think those were a few in a (debated) list they were developing of suggested grounds for gross misconduct clauses to put at the outset into nanny contracts by those nanny employers in that 2011 thread. I'd relook at your contract with this Nanny to see what you wrote into it about disciplinary procedures and gross misconduct, as that's likely to be key here whether it is grounds for GM or other routes.

She needs to go. She's not fulfilling her role and the CF even asking you for more pay to cook in her own time when she's perfectly capable of doing it in working paid hours at your home

First of you have no right to post your Nanny's medical history on here, that's private. She does not have to divulge anything to you. If you are so concerned, look after your own children.

Oh do buzz off Scarlett. The OP has every right to anonymously ask for advice.

And I say this as someone who has a husband with a very similar sounding condition. (He is a teacher & had to have an interview with occupational health regarding his fitness to work)

@ScarletBitch do you literally trawl MN to have a pop at other posters?

The OP hasn’t named her Nanny or herself and she has every right to ask for advice.

The nanny is in no way identifiable, and there is no reason whatsoever why OP shouldn't give the information she has done about her for the purposes of this thread.

I think it does sound as if the issues are due ti her illness. But it is fine to dismiss people if they can no longer do their job because of illness.

The thing though is that there really is no earthly reason for her to not prepare the food. She could do this sitting down. It really doesn't matter if she has a medical condition. She is refusing to do simple tasks and taking the piss. You cannot trust her to provide safe childcare.

If she is feeling dizzy she may also be feeling nauseous and may be worried when preparing food that she is going to throw up.
I have had a temporary similar illness and I think all her behaviour is linked to her illness.
But this does not mean you can not sack her.

I am appalled though at the ageism on this thread.

I also think that you've got to separate her behaviour from any illness. She has not told you that all (any) of the issues you are describing are linked to illness, or asked for accommodation, and most of these are not so obviously linked that it would be reasonable to assume it's due to illness (for example the cooking, or putting your DD into the front seat, or being awful to your DS).

Regardless of health, she's not a good carer to your children or a good employee to you.

Id reiterate that you need to look at her contract, follow your agreed disciplinary procedures - as outlined in the contract and let them play out.

She is declaring herself fit for work by turning up. You can challenge this if you have evidence but personally I'd bring up the issues you've described and let her give any mitigation she may want to put. It's really hard if she is turning up for work for you to definitely say it's her ill health but you really don't have to either- so don't go there unless she does. An employer can usually send someone to occupational Helga services to test fitness for task but honestly - whilst it's really sad for her - unless she brings it up with a proposal for changes duties...'I can no longer do x so how about why' you don't have to.

Please try and stop thinking about contracts being 'null and void' etc. They really aren't. A tribunal would look at what's reasonable - ie if you have repeatedly given her instructions that counter her contract then it is reasonable to conclude that there has been a verbal change to the control. Letting things go isn't quite the same.

As others have said if you cant develop a case for gross misconduct - and the fact you intervened may mean you actually can't (frustrating I know but...) - then it will have to multiple things. You may need to consider giving her a reasonable period. Tell her clearly that you have concerns about what's not being done and for give her x time. Review.

Again as others have said you could give her notice and decide to pay her in lieu of notice so that she doesn't actually work.

It all really comes back to the contract and your assessment of the risk of her taking further action against you.

Have the conversation. She is highly unlikely to be happy either and her make 'read the tea leaves'.