Nanny problem - dizziness

[Yoonie]

Dear all

Need some advice regarding a new development that concerns my 60year old nanny. When we hired her 6months ago, she was active, vibrant, full of energy and enthusiasm.

After Christmas, she was diagnosed with a dizziness problem (with severe headache and vomiting) and went 2-3times to the doctors to get tested. The blood results came back and she only informed me that there is no cure (no pill) she can take and that she just has to live with it. She has not been forthcoming with the medical condition since then.

Now, as I have had a lot of time after Christmas to stay at home, I noticed a big change in her activities with my 9months old baby. In the past two months, she has not gone out of the house with her. Except the two times that I insisted that she takes her out (it was such a beautiful day!). She went out reluctantly and cited that it is too cold for the baby and that her eyes were runny.

Her attitude has also changed a lot, before she was a positive and energetic person and now when I ask her to prepare meals for my 7 year old son, she insists that she cooks at home and bring them the next day. Once it took her over 2 weeks to bring the food to my son. That was not part of the deal and she asks to be compensated for the extra hours she spent cooking at her house too, which I did not ask. She can in fact cook while my 9months old baby is sleeping but she only does puzzles during the 1.5 - 2 hour nap which she takes two times a day. So I feel a little short changed. She also does not do any little house chores which are in her contract.

She also does not go to fetch old books from my 7 year old DS1, which is on the third floor of the house (town house), which puzzles me as I told her repeatedly that it will be good for DD2 to start to look at books. I suspect that she does not feel confident enough to walk up the staircase and back down.

After talking to my sister-in-law last week, who had an auntie with dizziness problem and stayed home 3 months after fainting, I got scared. I feel very uncomfortable leaving my very active baby in her care. I cannot leave the baby alone for 5minutes as she is crawling everywhere and trying to standing up every second. She can get into trouble any second, if unattended by an adult.

Lastly, when I asked her last week to accompany me and my DS1 for a swimming lesson (it was close to her husband's restaurant), instead of hanging around the swimming pool centre, she insisted on taking her to her husband's restaurant for 45minutes and for me to pick up my baby after the swimming lesson. This involved her driving my baby on the front seat of the car (which she does with her granddaughter, but I was too shocked to even respond). I think she is doing this to protect herself, and her not being forthright about her condition is making me paranoid and uneasy.

Please tell me if I am being paranoid or if I have start taking measures to let her go. My DH is very much against a dismissal based on her fitness to work. But I feel that I have to request from her doctor a written confirmation that she is able to carry on her work with her condition. Am I being too harsh? Please be honest with me. I want to hear your honest thoughts.

@ DogInATent - oh I see... I did not think about that... hmmm..From my point of view, there are two factors to consider: one is the notice period and the other is the personal relationship. If we don't bring up the illness, then she has to serve out her two months notice period which would endanger the safety of my baby... the other aspects is as mentioned, I want to end this on good terms so that my baby can go and see her at a later time...(we always kept in touch with our babysitters from 5-7years ago and some are still babysitting in the evenings...) Maybe I have to ask her in a subtle way how she is feeling (on a bad day) and asks if this is the reason she is not doing some of the "basic duties"... or as Bellie710 has mentioned to give her tasks that she will refuse to do..... Not easy....

@ fruitbrewhaha - yes indeed. as I lost both my parents as a young adult, so I really wanted my children to have constant contact with older aged caregivers. I feel they bring a different and more relaxed attitude to child rearing... or so i thought... Guess the risk is that you can never be too confident about the state of their health six months later...

Car seats never go in the front seat. Neither do 7 year olds. Please read up on current safety standards.

I would fire a nanny immediately for putting the baby in the front seat, but you were present so you signed off on it.

It doesn’t seem like she is up for the job. It’s unfortunate, but your children need to come first. I would let her go.

I had this issue with my DH over a nanny/housekeeper who stopped doing the things she was meant to be doing and sat around on her phone a lot. He was unwilling to "upset" her by telling her to get on with it or go. Easy for him to say, he wasn't the one who was having to pick up the slack and I bet it is the same for you - if the nanny isn't cooking for the children does he roll up his sleeves and do it or does it fall to you? In the end I pointed out that if he was being "nice guy" to the nanny/hk who wasn't doing her job he was basically saying he valued her feelings ahead of mine (and my time).

If I’ve understood correctly, I’d sack her for driving with your 9mo baby on the front seat!

Purpleartichoke - Yes, I feel that I must. I have always kept my son on the backseat, but my husband started doing it late last year (with a modified airbag) and it is a two seater, so I thought it was okay. But you are right, I will read up on it on my own.

And you are right. I was too shocked and mortified to stop her on her tracks but I should have stopped her immediately. I was late to swim class but that should not be an excuse to let this happen under any circumstances. I will not let her drive my DD anywhere from now on.

I think you have to accept that if you end her employment, then it is unlikely that you will be able to be good friends / visitors to her house in the future. It's lovely to aim to stay in contact with past care givers but this should definitely not be a priority over actually having a competent care giver!

You need to arrange a sit down meeting with your nanny, like you would with any other employee, and talk about how you both feel she is doing. Have the contract with you and highlight the areas that she is not fulfilling and discuss with her why this is not being done and how she can move forward and fulfil all parts of her job in the future. If she says she will step up and do more, then give her the opportunity to do so. If not, then you will need to think about terminating her contract.

It's definitely not easy but it is part and parcel of being an employer, the reward will be knowing that your children are being well looked after in the way that you would wish.

She hasn't told you that she can't do these things because of her illness. That would be her responsibility not yours. So in that case you can dismiss her because she is not doing what you pay her to do.

If we don't bring up the illness, then she has to serve out her two months notice period which would endanger the safety of my baby.

No, she doesn't, because she's in breach of the contract. If you want to keep it amicable, pay her something in lieu of notice.

Your husband needs to weigh up what is more important to him, the safety and wellbeing of your children on the one hand, or playing it nice with the nanny and having a nice lady around who reminds him of his mum on the other.

You are valuing staying on good terms with her over your baby getting to leave the house for the next two months, and possibly being in danger from someone who doesn't consider themselves safe to cook while in charge of small children.

If she valued your relationship - or your children's safety - half as much then she would have had a frank discussion with you earlier. Either she's in denial, or she doesn't care, or she does care but not enough.

Either way I would be looking for a new nanny immediately and giving her a decent final payment but not serving the two months notice given that she is not fulfilling the basic requirements of her job.

I wouldn’t talk about her illness with her and how it limits what she can do, I would worry that it opens a door to her then claiming discrimination.

I would just send her instructions in writing in the morning: please cook x while the baby sleeps, go to the park during the afternoon (let dd play, not just a walk in the buggy), do this household chore (one misted in the contract). You can tell her orally and then just «confirm» in writing, so you have a trace.
Then in the evening if she didn’t do the tasks, send another message with a recap of what wasn’t done so there is a trace again.
After a couple of days you should have enough to justify dismissing her.

I thought it was only illegal to have a rear facing car seat in the front seat if you had an active airbag?? If it is switched off it is perfectly legal unless the law has changed recently?

Meant to say I would also put the playpen away so that the baby couldn't be dumped in it all the time!

@Yoonie just to add, do read up on your requirements as an employer, and perhaps consider giving someone a call - I work in large companies so perhaps there are organisations specifically on this type of employment arrangement, that I’m not familiar with, but for starts you could call the Acas employer line.

All in all I think you have every right to dismiss. She’s been with you under two years and isn’t fulfilling her role. However, I’m not as close to the law on things like immediate termination for serious breach of contract/gross misconduct (which this sounds like it could be, particularly the safety concerns).

Also, don’t assume you’re not expected to know she could be disabled - there have been cases where employers should have known that the person was likely to have a long term condition which has a substantial impact on day to day activity (rough paraphrasing of the Equality Act 2010, long term usually meaning lasting 12 months or more).

I do think you are within your rights to dismiss, I just don’t recommend relying on posters (no offence!) who say ‘she hasn’t said she’s disabled so it doesn’t matter’ or alternatively ‘you should pay the notice’. See if you can get some good advice from those in the know, to ensure you do this in the best way - I would hope you should be able to dismiss her without notice due to the seriousness of her actions and the extent to which she is not carrying out her duties, regardless of illness. However you don’t want to be tripped up unnecessarily by something you didn’t take into account legally in how you handle. I see too many employers unfortunately in that situation for not realising, despite in theory having had every right to dismiss, finding themselves needing to settle financially due to errors on their own part, and ignorance is never a defence.

To clarify - cases where judges ruled at Employment Tribunal that employers could reasonably have deducted the employee could possibly be disabled, eg an employee regularly complaining of stress and the impact of the work on their stress, just because they haven’t said “I’ve been diagnosed with depression” or “I’m disabled according to the Equality Act definition” doesn’t meant the employer can claim complete ignorance of a possible disability.

I’m not an expert in this area, I need an awareness for my job, hence my suggestion of professional advice just to be sure you take the right steps. This is exactly what I would be doing (and have done previously, but as a manager rather than employing a nanny).

She isn’t fulfilling her contract or job description so you’re within your rights to give her notice. It’s unfortunate because it’s obviously not her fault but I don’t think it’s safe to leave her caring for a young baby. If she fainted whilst holding the baby for example, the result could be catastrophic.

I think you are conflating every single employment issue with her illness. I don’t think that’s the correct approach. And it’s one that is more likely to get you tangled up ethically too.

I say this as someone who is seriously ill and disabled, and is both an employer and also have been an employee.

Don’t make everything about her illness.

For example her refusal to make food in your kitchen has absolutely nothing to do with being poorly! And then not bringing in this much promised food for two weeks is just unacceptable. It sounds like she just dug her heels in at the thought of using a different type of hob, and instead of learning how to use it and realising that there is really very little practical difference once you’ve got used to the idea, she created a load of excuses, made life a lot harder, added difficulties to her life just when she is feeling poorly and needs to be simplifying things down. And then she couldn’t deliver on the ridiculous mess she’d got herself into, so, just... didn’t. None of that situation is acceptable in a work context, and although her health may have played a part in her later failure to deliver, it wasn’t the core reason she got herself in that mess, and she didn’t have to continue down that path either.

Her attitude to your older child is also nothing to do with her illness.

Refusing to come with you into the swimming venue and look after your child there again has nothing to do with her physical restrictions due to her illness. It might have been except she choose to travel again in her car then take the young toddler out and into her husbands restaurant to wait. Hum. To be honest that episode encapsulates what is wrong about your employer-employee relationship.

And as for car safety requirements. Again, I guess she could argue it’s because of her illness but in that case she’s not fit to look after a child and drive.

She isn’t fulfilling the job required of her. Full stop. That’s the issue you need to focus on.

Even when you give her a huge amount of freedom* to find her own work around to get things done in unusual & alternative ways... well, she’s still failing to deliver on quite basic expectations for the role.
*An excessive amount of freedom really, looking at the food example!

She hasn’t worked for you very long, and she’s way off the 2yr mark.

The car safety issue makes it reasonable for you to give immediate dismissal, because it’s too dangerous to have her in the role any longer. You could give an amount of pay off of course to reflect the fact that you understand she’s struggling and you feel sympathetic (I’d probably give a months money).

If you feel it’s less of a gross dismissal situation, then she could work out her notice of 2 months, although it could get difficult depending on how she takes it?

I’d be brave and whatever you do, do it swiftly. These types of situations get worse the longer you leave them.

Next time, create a job role or job description to go with the contract. It doesn’t have to be perfect, but it should list what you expect in terms of punctuality, calling in sick etc.
Then a list of potential tasks, including a sentence somewhere stating they are illustrative examples, and not limited to.

Also check you’ve got a list of what is cause for gross dismissal, basic safety requirements etc if you haven’t covered these in the main contract.

WellThisIsShit - yes, I agree you are right in approaching this without the issue of the illness/dizziness. This point of view has helped me look at the issue more clearly. I guess I was just trying to understand the reasons behind this week's out-of-line behaviour. But I wasn't conflating all the issues with her illness, it was more on the fact that she is not taking the kid out, not cooking at home, not walking upstairs and being rather passive and "withdrawn" most of the time. The issue that I had around the swimming pool was more that she wanted to organise the visit on "her terms" and not necessarily in the way that is common sense/convenient for me in dealing with the two kids. But that is not for me to judge. I should simply judge her on her ability to perform her duties, simple and plain. So that is the approach I will take with her. Having said that, given her state, I will consider giving her a nice send off, as it is not entirely her fault (or so I hope is what is going on here).

I wouldn’t talk about her illness with her and how it limits what she can do, I would worry that it opens a door to her then claiming discrimination.

This is an important point, This also reminded me that her son just graduated with a law degree and may be a lawyer by now, so I need to be extra careful with this point. So yes, thank you for pointing this out.

cubesofjelly - thank you for your detailed answer on this. I do think that I need to treat this employment matter carefully. You just never know with people.On more than one occasion, she did mention that she hoped that this would be her last work before her retirement... I will definitely do my homework and do read up on or talk to the link you sent through.

Can I ask whether you find it difficult to be confident in your expectations because of her age? In that you feel like you need to negotiate more with her because you’ve placed her in that ‘grandmother’ role?

It’s just that you seem to be pussyfooting around her and trying to accommodate her in ways that don’t seem to be fitting an employer-employee role. Why didn’t you just say no about the whole swimming pool instance? Or the seatbelt thing? You seem to be unable to assert yourself here.

Moreisnnogedag - Well, I did give her a straight NO. I said this idea just doesn't work for me and that it is too complicated for me to pick her up after the swimming class and that in this case, I would rather take the baby with me to the swimming pool. Half an hour later, she tried to convince me that she will make it easier for me to pick her up from the restaurant (save a parking spot, have her husband carry her into the car, etc etc). After all the negotiation (and running out of time), I just grew tired of it.

On the seatbelt issue, I also told her NO, that I was not driving unless she put the seatbelt on. and I did have to wait a good few minutes until she put on her seatbelt. I am an assertive person in general (worked in finance for 15years), but I do find it harder to communicate and work with people who are my parents' age I guess, because they function slightly differently. At the same time, I have had a very challenging year after giving birth to a baby so part of me just don't want to be dealing and negotiating with her on this all the time, so I just kind of played along for a while.

Sorry OP, but giving birth a baby months ago really isn't a reason for not being assertive with a staff member, because that's what she is - a member of household STAFF, not a family member. Obviously you treat nannies 'as part of the family' when doing day to day life but not when it comes to the description of the job.

You've hired her to do a job the way you want it done, not the way she wants it done. But because it's been allowed to become so skewed, it will tough getting her to change and go back into the role of staff. She may continue to debate and overrule.

Have a discussion with her and do what is best for your family, but prepare yourself and your husband for the possibility that sacking her is the only way forward.

I like this expression - pussyfooting around her.. :-) But you may be right, I just wanted this relationship to work. I was willing to put up to some extent but I have come to the end of my nerves now.

Sorry OP, but giving birth a baby months ago really isn't a reason for not being assertive with a staff member.

No, it is not that I gave birth months ago, but that I had to write my dissertation straight after having given birth and also take care of my 7 year old boy who needed tons of attention because of the new baby. So I I was physically and mentally too exhausted to think about anything else. I also had this belief that she will do the right thing and did not want to start off by putting her in an employee-employer relationship. But I guess in hindsight, I should have?

I've read most of your posts because tbh the first was more than enough. Give he notice. I used to be a nanny and after a long time in a job the contract became null and void in that both sides did extras, asked for extras, were more relaxed as the relationship had built.

There is no real relationship with at least one of your children. She is not doing as you ask. She's attempting to break the law with the seat belt.

Today. Give her notice. Pay her the two months and let her go. If something happened to your children in the next two months you wouldn't be complaining about the money paid in notice and the extra cash paid for emergency help for the next two months.

I'm just wondering what Disciplinary procedures you have in place. Has she done enough for gross misconduct? Has she had a written warning?

Tbh endangering your child by putting car seat in front and not strapping in and arguing point about not requiring seat belt when in back seat (causing you lack of confidence when you are not there), not taking baby out of house, leaving baby in child pen for excessive hours, not fulfilling housework duties, ignoring dS1, not preparing meals for children as per her contract- meaning that if you hadn't stepped in- her charges/your children would not have properly eaten....

She hasn't worked 2 years so unfair dismissal would not apply. It only applies if you sack directly due to a disability - but you are terminating due to child neglect, as there is an element of someone who is lazy /and not acting in your children's best interests and won't follow instructions. She's a liability.

Don't let your husband quiz her about her medical condition. That's discriminatory in itself, she would be the one to raise it.

(Also if she drives the children, has she declared to DVLA a reportable medical
condition ?)

I'd be inclined to get some legal HR advice on your do responsibilities as an employer, which do not trump safeguarding of children issues. And put in writing/ terminate her contact on grounds of gross misconduct. Either way, give her notice or terminate contract asap.

In terms of reasonable adjustments, don't get caught up as an employer of one for child care/nanny as a. She hasn't shared a permemant disability she's only mentioned dizziness b. How far can really reasonably adjust here - when she isn't doing basics & it's putting your childrens' wellbeing at risk.

There's one thing her saying I can no longer drive (fine, taxis can be arranged) but failing to do/ doesn't want to do...a b c d e f g of my duties "and therefore I feel it's ok to neglect your children" is ridiculous. I don't think a judge would accept neglect of children as a reasonable disability adjustment. ( I'm disabled and wouldn't get away with causing neglect in my job) You're only in the house for temporary period and it has recently come to light how much child neglect and risk to children she is causing.