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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to remind everyone that the MMR vaccine does NOT cause autism?

999 replies

TheHodgeoftheHedge · 05/03/2019 16:49

Seeing as this worry comes up so many times on MN and in wider life, I feel obliged to post this and remind everyone that MMR has not link to autism whatsoever, as yet another HUGE study has found.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/mmr-vaccine-autism-antivax-measles-study-andrew-wakefield-a8808086.html

Thanks.

OP posts:
Lweji · 16/03/2019 15:29

Filling up the thread

AIBU to remind everyone that the MMR vaccine does NOT cause autism?
HIVpos · 16/03/2019 15:31

Wow things look really bad in the USA atm. The sooner compulsory vaccination comes in the better - and this includes free vaccinations in every country including those where risk is greater yet who currently have to pay for it

HIVpos · 16/03/2019 15:32

Unfortunately anti vaxxers and denialism is everywhere...it’s like some sort of delusional cult

HIVpos · 16/03/2019 15:33

Oh good final page

HIVpos · 16/03/2019 15:35

Just going to copy and paste this next bit here, in the event Cath decides to post again about this on another thread, so it can be easily found again.....

HIVpos · 16/03/2019 15:36

So…this post is not directed to anyone in this thread who is genuinely trying to question and debate the use of the MMR vaccine.

This post is solely to @Cathmidston who is very obviously an AIDS DENIALIST, and also seemingly a denialist of many other things like cancer/treatment. So this post is not just about AIDs denialism, it is about other denialism too.

Done a bit of research and talked to others who have encountered this sort of thing. General consensus is DO NOT ENGAGE IN DEBATE WITH PEOPLE LIKE CATHMIDSTON. There is absolutely no point as there’s simply is no debate with people like her.

There are a lot of articles on this but this link explains things a little and is quite a good explanation of denialism in general newhumanist.org.uk/articles/2165/how-to-spot-an-aids-denialist
There is also a Hall of Shame in there – you might recognize a few names Cath has mentioned. Just to point out a few things mentioned other posters might recognize in Cath’s posts (try interchanging HIV/AIDS with things like cancer to get the idea)

  1. AIDS denialism tells us what anyone would want to hear – that HIV does not cause AIDS and that if you live a “healthy lifestyle” (whatever that is) you won’t get AIDS.
  2. AIDS denialism is one of several incarnations of denialism. All denialism is defined by rhetorical tactics designed to give the impression of a legitimate debate among experts when in fact there is none
  3. The more sophisticated efforts of AIDS denialism, like the “documentary” House of Numbers, are most disturbing because they use every trick in the denialist playbook to juxtapose pseudoscience with established science. The best way to recognise AIDS denialism is to know their common tricks of persuasion.
  4. There are two sides to every debate. But just asserting there is a debate does not mean there is one. AIDS denialists rely on a small band of fake experts, mostly retired academics who proclaim that HIV does not cause AIDS. There is not a single instance of an “expert” offered by AIDS denialism that has ever actually done research on AIDS. (then goes on to mention so called experts referenced by Cath and explains why thy are not experts in this field – Mullis for example, never did any research on AIDS)
  5. For AIDS deniers, everything old is new again. AIDS denialists rely on selected research findings from the days when not much was known about AIDS.
  6. Unfortunately, outdated scientific literature is not purged when new knowledge emerges. AIDS deniers use this information to create the illusion of a live debate. Denialists select old findings that support their flawed logic because they have no evidence of their own. Cherrypicking is another favourite rhetorical technique of denialists. This involves selecting a lone scientific finding, presenting the results out of context, and deploying it as evidence for their own conclusions.
  7. AIDS denialists will also demand even more specific evidence, only to change the demand once the evidence is produced.
  8. But while some denialists are clearly charlatans out to make a quick buck out of other people’s misery, many are perfectly genuine, which is what makes them especially dangerous (Cath – this is you) They can be persuasive because they actually believe what they say. Evidence means nothing to them. Their thought process resembles what psychiatrists call an “encapsulated delusion”, where despite what appears to be otherwise rational thinking there is an intractable maladaptive belief system that is impermeable to contrary evidence
  9. And finally, hard as it might be for believers in free speech and open debate, if you encounter AIDS denialism, do not enter into a debate. AIDS denialists want to create the impression that there is a debate regarding HIV causing AIDS and debating feeds the illusion. This debate was exhausted years ago

As said above, there is NO point debating anything with Cath. The only “good” thing is, she CANNOT and WILL NOT recommend that we all believe as she does and actively cease any medication/vaccination that in her eyes will do more harm than good and instead lead a healthy lifestyle. This is because she is NOT SURE (and doesn’t dare!) So there is hope yet for her family!
So the gist of this is…DO NOT ENGAGE IN DEBATE WITH CATHMIDSTON. SHE IS DANGEROUS AND SPOUTS ABSOLUTE CRAP. TO DO SO WOULD BE A WASTE OF TIME.

HIVpos · 16/03/2019 15:39

So we know that next time, when faced with Cath, or someone like her, we’ve tried to engage, we’ve tried to debate, but we also knew that there would be no point...but still we tried, just so we could understand this for ourselves,

AwakeAfterMidnight · 16/03/2019 15:40

It’s been an interesting read this week - only minor input from me. Thanks to HIVpos, Lweji and others for being the voice of reason.

Four months on from my husbands CML diagnosis and we have just enjoyed a weeks skiing. Back home tomorrow and back to the hospital on Monday. It’s been a bit rocky path so far and the last blood results weren’t great, hoping for better news in a couple of weeks.

HIVpos · 16/03/2019 15:42

So next time...no debate to be had. It will hopefully be an experience full of yawns, oh really and lols. Perhaps a bit of “I’ve heard that one before”...actually I think there’ll be a lot of that!

HIVpos · 16/03/2019 15:48

@AwakeAfterMidnight thank you for your contribution too, and also that of everyone else who has posted in support of the OP (Hodge)

Glad that you seem to be trying to continue life as normal...lucky thing going skiing...I used to do that loads. I hope your DH’s results improve and your road becomes a bit smoother Flowers

HIVpos · 16/03/2019 15:59

Just had a read about CML...apparently this is something else that has been transformed from something ultimately fatal to nearly always treatable.

We do have to give thanks sometimes that we live now and not in the past

AwakeAfterMidnight · 16/03/2019 16:09

We definitely should HIVPos - his haematologist is saying to treat it like a long term condition. I should feel lucky I suppose, but I am still very angry. It has been life changing for us all and we still have a long way to go.

We are hopeful though - his last results weren’t what they expected, but we will know more on Monday or possibly in a couple of weeks.

MissConductUS · 16/03/2019 16:17

Wow things look really bad in the USA atm.

They could be much worse. Overall pediatric vaccination rates are trending up fairly steadily

Early childhood vaccination trends in America

Unfortunately so are refusal rates. Lots of kids miss scheduled vaccinations because parents can't be arsed to bring them in for well child visits. That's the middle ground that can be effected by education and outreach.

By the way, pediatric vaccines are heavily subsidized in the US by the federal government and are available for free for those without private insurance.

The VFC Program: At a Glance

HIVpos · 16/03/2019 16:46

@AwakeAfterMidnight do you mind if I ask why you’re angry? Or did I miss something. Apologies if that’s a stupid question.

HIVpos · 16/03/2019 17:00

@MissConductUS that’s great to know that pediatric vaccines are available for free if someone cannot pay (great shame some parents cba) What’s interesting about the USA is medical issues seem to be very insurance based, but there are other ways, either via subsidy, or via charities etc (Ryan White foundation for HIV for example)

However there was a post further back about Madagascar and measles...here’s another link on it www.irinnews.org/news-feature/2019/03/14/madagascar-1100-measles-deaths-are-more-about-money-vaccine-hesitancy There are some countries where the 1st vaccination is free but not the 2nd

AwakeAfterMidnight · 16/03/2019 17:17

I’m angry at the unfairness of it all - sounds stupid I know. I think it’s going to take time to get used to a new kind of normal.

Gilead · 16/03/2019 17:24

It's estimated that one in five of allchild deaths has been averted due to measles vaccines It's from Oxford and Public Health England though, so be careful, it's really quite a reliable source!

Gilead · 16/03/2019 17:29

immunisation statistics Again, be careful, this is the NHS! Wink

Gilead · 16/03/2019 17:30

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/01/social-media-fake-news-blame-low-mmr-vaccine-take-says-englands/ Social media nonsense to blame for low take up rates.

HIVpos · 16/03/2019 17:31

@AwakeAfterMidnight ah ok I understand that totally and can empathisize. It’s the “why me/us” thing. It’s shit when it happens and there can be a lot of anger.

Sorry - this might sound wrong to you but I see a lot of similarities. We think we do everything to protect ourselves and stay safe, live a healthy life etc...but something can still happen to turn everything upside down. We then enter a rollercoaster - lots of ups and downs.

However in time, thanks to modern science, it starts levelling out a bit. We find a new normal, a new path. It’s a bit more of a windy path than a straight one. Perhaps a more interesting one or one where we question ourselves more? Not really what we were expecting, but that’s life I guess.

Gilead · 16/03/2019 17:32

I wonder if there are countries Cath has never visited, she would needs vaccinations for some. She did say she hops on planes more than most?

Gilead · 16/03/2019 17:33

I wonder if yellow fever exists...

Gilead · 16/03/2019 17:33

Typhoid.

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