To think that Martina Navratilova should not have to apologise for the transgender comment?

[Nickersnackersnockers]

Rachel McKinnon is a transgender cyclist, who, surprise surprise, is winning races against women.

Ok, maybe Navratilova shouldn't have used the word cheated, but surely nobody can disagree with the fact that Ms McKinnon has a male body, and the size and strength of a man, and having the right to compete against women is just plain wrong?

McKinnon is a heterosexual man who has managed to identify his way into two different oppressed groups (women and lesbian). He appears to be collecting protected characteristics that he doesn't possess- if he identified as disabled to enter the Paralympics or identified as another race when the whole world can see with their own eyes he is white, would anyone defend him or call those who object bigots? Of course not.

I just did, now if you could tell me how RM is a woman that'd be great thanks.

Well now you have said that you don't see any trans women as women, that would be pointless. It just ends up in the same debate about feelings and chromosomes and prisons and....... Blah, blah, blah ...I'm pretty sure we would never agree so it's all a bit pointless.

Many people seem to have a problem with calling a trans woman a woman even if she's just quietly living her life

If only. Most of them are too busy gobbing off on social media about how the global definition of 'woman - adult human female' is offensive and forcing new terms such as 'menstruating people' into medical literature as opposed to 'menstruating women'

@Dauntless
You are very good at side stepping questions arent you

Well surely if you believe RM to be a woman it should be easy to explain why. The fact that I probably wouldn't agree isn't a reason not to answer. I don't think for a minute you'd agree with my posts but I still answered your question.

Most of them are too busy gobbing off on social media

See, this is the kind of sweeping generalisation that harms your cause massively. If you have a real viewpoint and believe it's valid, then you need to not use rubbish like this in your arguments.

Things I never expected to see in my lifetime: people claiming that individuals born with penises, who underwent male puberty, are women. Jaw-dropping.

I don't actually have any issue with maintaining a polite fiction around pronouns with individuals I know in real life. But I am not going to buy into the absurd belief that transwomen are indistinguishable from women, and I'm not prepared to let them or their supporters put women at risk or disadvantage because they "believe" they have a right to access our spaces, sports and bodies.

See, this is the kind of sweeping generalisation that harms your cause massively

The fact you refer to it as a 'cause' speaks volumes

If you have a real viewpoint and believe it's valid
Have yet to see yours.

Are you going to answer @Bluestitch question?

But I am not going to buy into the absurd belief that transwomen are indistinguishable from women, and I'm not prepared to let them or their supporters put women at risk or disadvantage because they "believe" they have a right to access our spaces, sports and bodies.

What are your thoughts on this @Dauntless?

Well surely if you believe RM to be a woman it should be easy to explain why.

It is easy to explain why, I'm happy to call trans woman a woman if that's what they want for all the reasons you see any person who is happy to do this. But I've been on this merry go round before and it always end the same like I say. I thought maybe you just were against calling Rachel a woman because you feel she's taking advantage but now I know you don't class any trans woman as a woman or trans man as a man I presume, there's no point in going over it all.

I think maybe Dauntless is too embarrassed to try to explain why adult men with penises are actually women because it is clearly absurd. TWAW is a catchy mantra but I've never seen a coherent explanation as to how they are in fact women.

People are also silent about the fact that in some instances athletes such as McKinnon are nearly 2 decades older than the (born) female athletes they compete against. McKinnon and co can reach the top of the female sport within a couple of years when competing against women 20 years younger at their female peak.

It is easy to explain why

Go on then.

but now I know you don't class any trans woman as a woman or trans man as a man I presume, there's no point in going over it all

Convenient.

Convenient

There's numerous threads where people explain why they are happy to class trans women as women. Have a read. You will never be satisfied with their answers because you don't agree.

This is surely one of the most nonsensical aspects of the transgender movement. When it comes to brains - where there is no evidence of material gender differences - they insist such differences exist. But when it comes to bodies - where the evidence of disparity is so overwhelming that until about five years ago, to deny it would make you a flat earthed - no, we have to insist no material difference exists

Spot on!

The thing is, segregating men and women in sport would be unfair discrimination if it wasn't universally accepted that for biological reasons men have an unfair advantage physically and therefore it is actually fairer to segregate the sexes.
If we're going to stop segregating based on biological sex and start segregating based on gender, we might as well not have segregation at all: no men's tennis and women's tennis, just tennis.

It's not about being happy to class transwomen as women (as another poster said it's possible to maintain a polite fiction in day to day interactions), it's about whether they ARE women. Do you believe RM is actually a woman?

Most of them are too busy gobbing off on social media

This is fucking bullshit. I don't follow sport but I am invested in trans rights. So McKinnon is a twat, right? But that doesn't make every other person in the world with gender dysphoria one does it, surely?

@Dauntless you have posted on this thread numerous times but continue to fail to answer questions and instead are now trying to direct people elsewhere AND at the same time rubbishing other posters and their opinions.
You stated It is easy to explain why so go ahead.
Or maybe you just can't.

In a world where
‘We need to protect sport for young girls’ is considered hate speech.

Funny how it’s only transwomen who harp on about transphobia and always in response to women.
Men telling women to be quiet.

Things I never expected to see in my lifetime: people claiming that individuals born with penises, who underwent male puberty, are women.

A biological woman taking a transwoman to court for transphobic harassment of said biological woman.

This happened two days ago.

Thankfully the judge threw it out but UK taxpayers foot the bill for this nonsense.

Also being happy to respect the 'gender identity' of a transwoman is irrelevant to an issue like sports. Sport is supposed to be segregated by biological sex for both fairness and safety. What is the point of segregating it by gender identity? Why not taste in music then, or political opinion? All rely on a feeling that cannot be seen or measured in any meaningful way. You know what can be seen? Biological sex.

There's numerous threads where people explain why they are happy to class trans women as women

To my mind happy to class is not the same as are.

In day to day life calling a TW, who is quietly going about life, as 'she' can be fine. However if the TW commits a crime, accesses single sex female areas, or participates in female sport, then it becomes a big problem. Especially if now a TW is any man who says they are with no gatekeeping.

People have been happy to treat TW as if they were W in many circumstances. The TWAW #nodebate, self-id, and people like RM are causing acceptance and tolerance to go.

I don't follow sport but I am invested in trans rights

Well good for you.
And I am invested in the rights of biological women to voice their concerns without being shut down by men and to not have their 'spaces, sports and bodies invaded by men' (thank you @justme}