To think that Martina Navratilova should not have to apologise for the transgender comment?

[Nickersnackersnockers]

Rachel McKinnon is a transgender cyclist, who, surprise surprise, is winning races against women.

Ok, maybe Navratilova shouldn't have used the word cheated, but surely nobody can disagree with the fact that Ms McKinnon has a male body, and the size and strength of a man, and having the right to compete against women is just plain wrong?

Mansplaining is exactly what you're doing. You're entitled to have an opinion and I'm happy to consider it, though do I think it carries the same weight as that of women, especially women who are being directly affected by this? No, I don't. But you having an opinion isn't the issue. You insisting that I haven't understood your point when I have but disagree with it is classic mansplaining, as is saying, no, no don't do this, do that.

Callip the end of the day, a transwoman still has a male body and is biologically male, with all the advantages over a female body and nothing can change that. Non transwomen have a right to feel angry about a biological man, going into their sport and thrashing them due to him having a stronger and more muscular body. So therefore biological women have no chance of winning, it has been taken over by the biological men who are identifying as women. The rules need to be changed, there needs to be a third space in sport where transwomen can compete.

I'm always interested in both sides of a case so I tracked down and watched a lengthy lecture McKinnon delivered on trans inclusion in sport in Germany. She based it on sports science, philosophy and international law (quite a heady mix of disciplines, but her work is co-authored with a legal expert; no scientists).

As I said on another thread, I strongly suspect that it was exactly this sort of campaigning that caused the change to the IOC rules in the first place.

I suspect the IOC were bamboozled by the trans-advocates persuasive "arguments" rather than real scientific facts on the very real, established differences between men and women, and fairness in sport.

The facts are very clear - having a male body gives a clear advantage. Going through a male puberty gives a clear advantage and going on sex hormones and androgen-blockers for a year doesn't level the playing field.

I disagree with how this position is being asserted, and I'm not going to shy away from saying so.

You are telling women - on a feminist board - how we should think. Yes, that is mansplaining.

OK. I'll take a step back here and try to address that.

I'm not saying things the way I do because you're a woman. I assume you are, but it's not why I post like this. It's how I am with men also.

When I say I think you're missing my point, I genuinely think that you are. I'm not saying I know best, or that you're wrong to have XYZ opinion.

But I do think we're talking at cross purposes, and I'm struggling to work out how to get that across.

I think that even if you are 100% correct, those on the other side will just beat it back with cries of bigotry, and the media are really pushing that angle themselves.

So I'd rather not give them the ammunition, and concentrate on the disparity in strength etc.

Aeroflotgirl - that is pretty much my opinion yes.

The fact is, callipygian is that women and girls are being cheated out of places, titles and scholarships because of these rule changes.

You cannot get away from that. Rachel McKinnon should not have been allowed to compete - Rachel McK was born male, and has a very large, masculine body that has benefitted from a male puberty.

The women that came 2nd, 3rd and 4th on those races were cheated out of their true places - and dressing it up in nice kind language is not going to women anywhere.

Rachel McK is certainly not using nice, kind language to make their assertions.

But I do think we're talking at cross purposes, and I'm struggling to work out how to get that across.

You could start by not telling women what to think and how to frame the argument.

But you won't. Because men need to tell women how to think and act and feel.

ToeToToe - again, I agree.

This is the thing, my position is not that women are wrong to be opposed to this.

It's that I think the way people are arguing against it simply will not work in the face of the tactics being used.

PickledLimes - OK, if I'm the one misunderstanding you, then I apologise for not reading your posts properly.

The tactics being used against us is the aggressive silencing of our voices, callip.

What do you suggest we do? Ask nicely, like good little girls?

Why do you, as a man, want to tell women how to argue, on the subject of women's sports?

You agree our points - but we're asserting it wrongly - this is something women are constantly told, by men, and I'm sick of it.

ToeToToe - The reason it matters to me is because I think this is wrong, and sport should be fair.

But I also have transgender friends, and I find a lot of the characterisation of trans people to be rather unpleasant. I think about how I'd feel if these accusations were leveled at them.

I'll never say to argue "nicely" on this, I'm aggressive as hell myself when I care about something. I'm saying argue "tactically"

I have transgender friends too(Transmen) but that doesn't mean that I'm going to put up and shut up when transactivists try to take my name, my safe spaces and opportunities from me. I have no problem with your average transgender person though I'm not going to pretend that they have switched sex, but I very much have a problem with the transactivists who are running roughshod over women and their rights and expecting to be applauded and adored while doing it.

I'm aggressive as hell myself

You don't say.

Tell me, your opinion on brexit. Or any other contentious subject. Then I'll tell you the best way to argue it, and why your arguments aren't working. We'll see how you like that.

And - just so you know - we all have transgender people irl and online that we care about. A transexual named Miranda Yardley was dragged into court on a fallacious whim by trans-advocates on Friday - thrown out by the judge - but put Miranda through ten months of hell.

I care about that. And I don't care to be told how to make assertions by anyone - you included.

*Please don't really tell me your opinion on brexit - just making a point.

I would suggest most (probably 99%) men agree with the general feeling on this thread. I cant recall seeing any men arguing for it. I have seen many men saying its ridiculous - joe rogan on mma, elgintensity on weightlifting etc

Its mainly trans women who disagree. Its not men silencing or disregarding women- its trans women doing it

On that we agree. I appreciate we don't see eye to eye on how to address this, but I really do not like McKinnon's approach, and I think it's potentially very damaging to how trans people are viewed.

Above post was in reply to PickledLimes.

ToeToToe - sorry to disappoint, I think Brexit is an astonishingly stupid clusterfuck.

It's your previous posts telling women how to make their arguments that disappointed me, callip.

ToeToToe - Well, while I can see that I could have come across better, this is the same position I have taken on the last couple of threads on the subject, and while several people disagreed with me there, too, they did seem to better understand why I see it this way.

Callip, maybe what you fail to realise is that there are lots of women on these boards who have been engaged in these debates for years now. We know their tactics. We know it makes not a fig of difference whether we tiptoe around politely or straight out state the truth that transwomen are men. Whether we spend hours carefully explaining why women's spaces are necessary and attempting to find compromises that work for everyone or whether we say GTF out of our spaces. Whether we waste lots of time providing careful scientific references to show male people have an advantage over female people in sports or whether we say people have eyes and we can all see how blatantly unfair this is.

It doesn't matter. We'll still be called bigots, transphobes, threatened with violence, hounded off social media, doxxed, reported to employers, the police, our political parties ... our meetings will still be shut down and protested, sometimes with violence etc. etc.

And meanwhile, while we're farting about doing our best to be nice and reasonable, the TRAs are charging full steam ahead making massive inroads into the erosion of women's rights, girls' rights and child safeguarding.

If you're a) male and b) new to this debate, it's understandable that you might not have appreciated this, but it does mean that your advice is both unhelpful and unwanted.

PickledLimes is right, we need more straight talking.

Its not men silencing or disregarding women- its trans women doing it

You've not encountered the lefty dudebro misogynists?

When we see as many transmen at the top and winning men's sports as there are transwomen doing the same in women's sports, then I will happily listen to debate on it.
Until that happens, then it's pretty obvious that there is an advantage with being born man whatever you choose to say in later life.

I think that even if you are 100% correct, those on the other side will just beat it back with cries of bigotry, and the media are really pushing that angle themselves.

Good. Let them. This is just illustrating what they trans ideology is like.

So I'd rather not give them the ammunition, and concentrate on the disparity in strength etc.

You haven't taken into account that they are currently using most of that ammunition to shoot themselves in the foot.

There is a two-pronged approach to be had here. One is the way that you are suggesting - reasoned debate avoiding emotive words - and the other is the one that many people actively want to use which is that it's out and out cheating.

Let's not pussy foot around, let's call it what it is. Let's shine the spotlight on it and examine it. If we are called bigots for doing so, so be it.

The overwhelming majority are shocked and outraged that Martina Navratilova was called a bigot and transphobic but do the likes of McKinnon stop using those words? Have they apologised. Have they fuck. They even have a list of all the 'transphobic' sportsmen and women who have spoken out.

So don't try to say we can't use a word like cheat.

There is no reason why both approaches can't be used at the same time. Good cop, bad cop is a well known tactic used to get to the truth of the matter.

People do feel outraged that this ruling has been brought in via stealth. And if both sides get a bit hot under the collar, their masks will slip and we will see what is really driving this.