To think that Martina Navratilova should not have to apologise for the transgender comment?

[Nickersnackersnockers]

Rachel McKinnon is a transgender cyclist, who, surprise surprise, is winning races against women.

Ok, maybe Navratilova shouldn't have used the word cheated, but surely nobody can disagree with the fact that Ms McKinnon has a male body, and the size and strength of a man, and having the right to compete against women is just plain wrong?

God, over 3 years I’ve been immersed in this debate and I’ve still yet to see this question answered that Dauntless is sidestepping. Every so often it appears that actually yes, this is going to be answered - and then it’s dodged again. You’d think people so certain that they are right would want to shout it from the rooftops but apparently not.

However, I am certain of my position so I’ll share it again:

woman = adult human female

@Intohellbutstayingstrong, what is your stance on female to male trans people?

There's numerous threads where people explain why they are happy to class trans women as women. Have a read.

No. You've been asked, repeatedly, to justify why you believe that TWAW. Upthread I have given a - brief, I could elaborate - summary as to why I do not. (And the reverse is equally true, to my mind: born with a vagina/ovaries/uterus, XX or XO chromosomes, undergo female puberty, etc - such an individual is not and never could be a male, a man).

So now it's your turn.

You're very welcome, @intohell. It's actually MN that opened my eyes to this toxic bilge. Came for the style threads (no kids), got rad-fem'd. Hah!

So McKinnon is a twat, right? But that doesn't make every other person in the world with gender dysphoria one does it, surely?

No it doesn't. But these vocal activists are pushing into every female safe space without regard for their dignity, privacy, safety or fairness. They are the ones changing laws so that the protected category of sex can be ignored.

There needs to be much more debate about this.

Also you should be aware that not all transpeople have gender dysphoria.

you don't class any trans woman as a woman or trans man as a man I presume, there's no point in going over it all

Distinction: Transwomen identify as women or Transwomen are women.

Most people are happy with the first, not so much the second because it is untrue.

@Bangin
Staggering that you truly cannot grasp the different between MtF and FtM
Hopefully this will help explain

Being a woman is much much more than a state of mind. Women have had hundreds and hundreds of years of being sexually assaulted, victims of violence, their dialogue constantly shut down by men, having to fight for their rights, for some degree of equality and viewed as little more than second class citizens. We are currently experiencing a new wave of attack from men who wish to ID as women and to remove any dialogue or narrative that make reference to being a biological female. These men are succeeding in making it offensive to use terms assigned to female biology. Any legitimate concerns are suit down as hate speech and transphobia

@Bangin...... Now read this in terms of FtM. Does it still make sense? Of course it fucking doesnt.

Hopefully that answers your question to me

A woman of similar ability and physicality to a man would not be disadvantaged because they have the same physical ability. What might separate them is skill and experience

You couldn’t be more wrong with regards to rugby for a start.

Still waiting for an answer. I actually have real contempt for those who would gaslight women, cheer on the erosion of women's sports and insist that TWAW but be completely unable to defend that position. It's so cowardly and makes me wonder at the motivation. Plain old misogyny? I've seen plenty of men online using TWAW as a stick to beat women with whilst appearing progressive when it's clear they don't even believe it themselves- anyone remember 'except for relationship purposes?' And the bloke on here once who was insistent that TWAW and calling posters bigots but was planning to use a surrogate- certainly seemed to know what an actual woman was then.

Oh I love it. Dauntless could explain to us why trans women are woman but we are so closed minded it would be pointless.
They really are priceless this mob aren’t they. I know I know they’re awful but you do have to laugh too.

For the - thankfully in the minority - few posters who wouldn’t have an issue with transwomen partaking in female sports, how do you deal with the situation of personal safety?

Hopefully that answers your question to me

It doesn't. My 13 year old is experiencing gender dysphoria, genetically female. I didn't choose it for them, and I would take it away if I could. Trying to help them navigate a future where they are lumped in a category which so many people feel so much hate for, frankly terrifies me.

I am a feminist, a single parent and have been a victim of both domestic abuse and sexual assault, so I completely understand and agree with the argument for safe spaces for women. But I am worried for the furure of my child and others like them, hence my question.

A real tragedy amidst all of this is the generation of young women, who - instead of proudly expanding the conventions and expectations of "womanhood" - are taking synthetic hormones and mutilating their female bodies in the belief that this somehow makes them "men".

Safety is a real concern. The Canadian games this year are I believe using self ID to segregate, and the sports involved include boxing. I'm worried that a woman might end up killed tbh.

McKinnon is a cheat and Martina Navratilova was right to point this out.

and have been a victim of both domestic abuse and sexual assault

I am very sorry to hear that @Bangin.

But I am worried for the furure of my child and others like them, hence my question

I can understand why you are concerned. From my stand point it is about the very real threat to women as per my post to you

A woman of similar ability and physicality to a man would not be disadvantaged because they have the same physical ability. What might separate them is skill and experience

No shit? But here on planet Earth, the vast majority of women do not have similar physicality to the vast majority of men and skill or experience can’t make up for that in the vast majority of sports. So, what was your point again?

Why do you think there was ever a need for separate women’s sports in the first place?

I personally think that being a woman is something we are taught (sociologically), hence why there are so many different “visions” of womanhood throughout the world. The concept of being a woman (for me) is personal and societal, not biological.

So are TW women, yes. If they purport to affiliate their persona, feeling, being etc as a woman, then I don’t have an issue with calling them a woman.

Are they female, well no. Biologically they are not female, they don’t possess the chromosomes necessary to be classed as female. However I don’t ever recall (personally) ever seeing a TW claim to be female, just that they are a woman, I’m ok and support that.

And for those that want to jump on “dictionary definitions”, I have literally no interest in such a poor argument.

It's so frustrating. I doubt one single person (ha!) on this thread is an anything phobe - not anti gay, anti trans, anti living how you want to live to feel happy and comfortable in yourself. But there is absolutely zero understanding from those falling over themselves to support any kind of identification in any arena and shutting down debate on the problems and dangers of men identifying as women in areas where it is either horribly unfair or horribly uncomfortable.

Bangingtoons

As a teenager, I experienced something that may well be gender dysmorphia. I hated my body and wanted to cut the female bits off ( couldn’t work out how to do it without leavening huge holes as I didn’t realise the Brest tissue isn’t fused to the skin). I wanted to be called David. I wanted to be a boy. I was always a boy in my dreams.

My parents and good friends helped me to realise I was just fine as me, there was nothing wrong with me, just some people in the world were total evil people or just plain stupid. And they made you feel bad, just to cover up their own insecurities.

I grew out of it (mostly) and am now a mother, and successful scientist.

I am glad I grew out of it,. Being female still sometimes sucks. I hate my lack of upper body strength, my lack of testosterone to stand and fight. But being me, doing better, happier, in life than all the horrid girls who despied me, is far better than living a lie. And as I get older, I see the benefits of not having endless medication. Being clean.

Pretending to be a man would have been as bad as pretending to be the type of girl people expected. I needed to be me. My body, my brain. Get over it.

Please share with you daughter if it would help, the Internet can be a bad place with lots of bad advice.

A male that have gone through puberty as a male have gained physical advantages against a woman that are irreversible.
This is why are there no men that identify as women in professional sport.

And for those that want to jump on “dictionary definitions”, I have literally no interest in such a poor argument

You are right. Why on earth do we bother with them when we can simply manipulate and change them to suit ourselves. Want to know the meaning of a word? Don't agree with the meaning of a word? Doesn't matter if that's the fucking definition. Make it up. Change it's meaning.

@Pinky

McKinnon has tweeted that transwomen are "women/female".

I seem to recall that McKinnon has also claimed to be a "biological female", but I cannot evidence that right now (unlike the quote above). Ten minutes trawling through that tide of Twitter-shit was ten minutes too many.

@midgebabe thank you for sharing this. It's very helpful to have a perspective from someone who has been through similar feelings and emotions. I will show her.

PinkyU do you think sports should be segregated by feelings or biology?

Even if we burned all dictionaries and wiped them from the internet, the biological reality remains the same. Humans are a binary species. Humans cannot change their sex and transwomen are men, not women.