To not let daughter attend?

[Mypoorboobs]

Daughter has an event this evening, she’s been so naughty I told her she was on her last chance or wouldn’t be going.

She then pushed the baby over backwards and laughed so I said that was it and she’s not going.

DP got home and said she can go as she’s been looking forward to it and we’ve already paid for it. I’ve said no, her behaviour is never going to improve if she doesn’t understand her actions have consequences. Who is right?

She’s 4 and not attending wouldnt be letting anyone down. We were planning to get some things that desperately need doing done while she was gone. (She’s a huge handful and can’t do anything with her here)

WWYD?

I don't think it's you. But I think that this style of parenting clearly isn't working with your DD. It's possible she has other issues because her behaviour does seem extreme. Getting some outside help will make it manageable. Good luck.

Her behaviour does sound extreme. Has she always been difficult?
I dont think it is your parenting. Have school raised any concerns? How is she after school when she comes home? Is she ok on play dates with friends?

Mypoorboobs - I don't think its you. I think your daughter might have some behavioural problems beyond what is normal and expected.

bashing her head against a wall to get attention, smashing up her toys, lack of empathy to you with a hurt foot, smashing up her room. there really is something else going on here beyond bad behaviour. what is the feed back from nursery/pre school? how is she around other friends children of the same age? The key to any discipline - and yes I am old fashioned and I do believe in discipline not the "don't touch that darling" approach - is to pick what you do and do it consistently. and yes, this might mean 30 or 40 times being put back on the naughty step and starting the time from zero but if she is seriously causing you this amount of stress then a new strategy that you both keep to has to be tried.

FWIW I would have kept to my threat of not going. I very rarely said this to my brood but when I did they knew I meant it and over the years each one of them has missed out on something that they really wanted to do because of bad behaviour.

If you assault someone you get locked up and prevented from going to anywhere!!

Remind me, does that approach work?

What happened to the naughty step?Simple/immediate/effective.

It’s actually lazy and ineffective.

Sympathies @smartiecake, she sounds very like my youngest at that age (who now has an ADHD diagnosis).

I would follow through personally. Depending on what the event is (and what her mood is like) I might let her earn the chance to arrive late so that she misses a chunk of it but not all. If my similar child had played up enough to get banned from going in the first place (despite a heavy consequence) I'd probably not be keen to go anyway for fear he'd be a liability at the event too.

boobiliboob… based on what evidence is the naughty step ineffective and lazy? research?

It doesn’t tackle the cause of the bad behaviour or reward good behaviour, which is where understanding will come from. It instils shame, which alters brain structures (people kill to avoid feeling shamed). It punishes by exclusion for actions and emotions children are usually too young to process or understand. The demanded apology is meaningless because it either isn’t meant or is meant about the punishment rather than the original act. And it’s lazy because it’s a one size fits all approach to behaviour.

not going to an event has nothing to do with pushing someone hours earlier? In what world are those two things related?

I agree with this and the idea of natural consequences. We have been using threats for years with very little effect. I recently bought a book called "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" its brilliant and i recommend it.

I would have immediately gone to the baby and comforted him making a big fuss of him then gone to dd and explained why her brother was so sad and asked dd to say how she was feeling. I would have told her how disappointed I was in her behaviour and to be honest at 4 that would be all I would do. If she chose to say sorry to her brother or cuddle.or kiss him later I would tell her how proud I was of her and what a good girl she was.

I would then make sure I didn't leave them alone together until this hitting phase was over and spend time on 2 things: 1)making 1-1 time with Dd a priority each day, preferably with both parents. Telling her how lovely she is and how much you love her "catching her" being good and praising her.

2. I would also spend time finding ways for dd to see her brother as part of her "team" are there some simple games you could play that could involve them both? (even better if they can be on a team together against you) it doesnt really matter if your toddler gets what he is doing he will be delighted by the attendtion! Could she help you read stories to the baby? Could you find opportunities to tell dd how much the baby loves her. "Look dd he is so excited because you are reading to him, he loves his sister so much"

None of the above ideas are mine but they do all work.

Her missing her activity isn't going to make her love the baby more is it? If it grinds her down enough to make her think she wont hit him again that's lucky but it won't stop her feeling resentment and won't improve their sibling bond.

I dont think it is you sounds like you are trying your best but have hit a wall

I think she's plenty old enough to make the connection between behaviour and consequence. I think it is really important that if you make a threat or issue a punishment you need to carry it through (no earning back) or she will never take it seriously. All that said I do favour natural consequences more.

Whichever way you choose to tackle her behaviour the important thing is to be consistent and stick with it. Nothing will work immediately. It's taken a long time to establish the behaviour that you don't like so it will take time to get rid of it too. In the meantime, you need some OTT praise for all the good stuff (no matter how small). It's also really important that both parents are on the same page with it. A calm, non-accusatory, chat with DP later might help.

Without wanting to alarm you, I do think the behaviour you have described seems quite extreme. It may be different where you are but in the school I work in we can offer a lot of support to families who are struggling, and can arrange parenting courses for those who need them. So it's well worth a chat with someone at her school (probably her teacher to start off with) about it.

nanbread Boobiliboobiliboo

I was drawing a comparison. I didn’t say it was effective in reducing behaviour or preventing unwanted behaviour.

Neither did I suggest that treating a child in the same mannor you would an adult be effective. I didn’t equate any behaviour the same as assult between adults - just a comparison on the consequence.

"Actually I see nothing wrong with sometimes saying “mummy was wrong” - it’s good for children to realise that it is fine to admit your mistakes!"

But in this case Mummy is not wrong

A nearly 5 yo in school shouid damn well know that you do not hurt people, especially smaller people.

The DH was wrong to undermine OP too.

OP and her DH need to get together and agree some consistent ground rules. A dC going through a bad patch can really be helped by secure and enforced boundaries

Op I am sure you have done nothing wrong.

It sounds like your little
Girl is extremely challenging , I am sure with how much you are working to improve her behaviour you will get there you sound a very caring mum.

No one knows your child like you do and where she is development wise so can’t judge on the punishment.

They don’t know what you have already tried, and it’s easy to judge when you don’t have the emotional attachement as well as th self doubt ans guilt that is attached to
Being a mummy.

Speak to your dh about what method he feels is appropriate/ ensure he enforced the way agreed when he is home it is important there is a united front

Big hugs and maybe there is more
Solid advice but have faith you know
Your daughter but take a step back look at what you have achieved with her as well as what you are trying to tackle!!

Big hugs and I am sure with how
Much you care you will
Find a way to
Figure it out x x

Probably lots of guilt tripping talking to them about how disappointed you are.

Don't think I've ever told my children I was disappointed in them. Maybe once but I instantly regretted it. There's no point laying it on thick and trying to make them feel ashamed. It often backfires and makes them lash out.

Obviously you try to prevent your child from pushing the other in the first place. But the natural consequence is that the baby falls over, gets upset, mum attends to baby.

If older DD works out pushing baby = gets baby attention, and thus less for them, they'll soon stop trying.

I'm far from a perfect parent who has all the answers and my DC can be hard work, but I do believe there are more effective ways than punishment and reward. As the OP has found, it's not working for her. Maybe it does for some kids. Not all.

OP the book "How to talk so little kids will listen" is really good and cheaper than a parenting course.

So now we can't let kids know we are disappointed in bad behaviour either? Good God what are we allowed to say to them?
I was terrified of disappointing my mum as a child, I had too much respect for her and new I would be in big trouble if I did do anything like push a baby over at 4 years old. I was a very well behaved child as was my younger brother. Worked for my mum and dad and we're not scarred because of it, and we are both extremely close to my mum.

A book called '123 magic' has been really helpful in this house! And 'how to talk so little people will listen'.

I was terrified of disappointing my mum as a child

Extrinsic motivation doesn’t breed intrinsic motivation.

Not wanting to disappoint someone else doesn’t make us do the right thing.

Not wanting to disappoint someone else doesn’t make us do the right thing
And even if it did surely the best motivation is wanting to do the right thing because you care and understand right from wrong. Surely the best outcome here is that dd doesn't want to harm her brother because she adores him and feels no resentment/jealousy or whatever she is motivated by.

God some of the day responses on here

She's 4 years old. Only just out of babyhood. It's hardly abnormal to hurt your siblings. She wants your attention. Love bomb her. Talk to her. If she is learning attention through naughty actions it will continue

By the way is she very bright?

Not wanting to disappoint someone else doesn’t make us do the right thing

It did for me 🤷

At four years old?

Op I have a 4 year old and think you need to follow through (haven't read full thread so don't know what happened)

My 4 yo is perfectly capable of connecting a consequence even if it's not immediate.
Also a firm believer in not threatening something you're not willing to do.

Also- a 4 yo is capable of understanding perfectly well we don't hurt people/ younger siblings.

If she was mine she wouldn’t be going.

It's impossible for us to say whether your DD is able to connect future consequences with their misbehaviour earlier in the day. All kids are different.

My DDs are both adopted and are birth siblings. They will be 10 and 7 next month. DD1 has SN connected with her adoption, and at the age of 4 definitely wouldn't have seen not going to an evening event as a consequence for misbehaviour in the morning. Whereas DD2 would definitely have made the connection; she used to explain the principle to her older sister.

From what you're saying, your DD's behaviour reminds me of DD1 at that age. She was a little younger when DD2 came to live with us at age 1. And yes, there were issues of jealousy in her case as well.

Does she behave this way in school? My DD1 doesn't! She's always been very quiet and well behaved in school, a real Jekyll and Hyde. We had to fight hard to get the help she needed and she's only now started therapy.

Her relationship with her little sister has really improved, however, to encourage you. It did take a long time to get there, though.