To not let daughter attend?

[Mypoorboobs]

Daughter has an event this evening, she’s been so naughty I told her she was on her last chance or wouldn’t be going.

She then pushed the baby over backwards and laughed so I said that was it and she’s not going.

DP got home and said she can go as she’s been looking forward to it and we’ve already paid for it. I’ve said no, her behaviour is never going to improve if she doesn’t understand her actions have consequences. Who is right?

She’s 4 and not attending wouldnt be letting anyone down. We were planning to get some things that desperately need doing done while she was gone. (She’s a huge handful and can’t do anything with her here)

WWYD?

I feel so conflicted now but I suppose there’s some things that she can do to feel like she’s earned her treat back so I could try that.
Don’t fall in to this trap. For us this led to misbehaviour and a consequence, followed by “what can I do that’s good to get it back”

It took us a while to turn that one around!

The money is already spent, and her going won’t leave you any better off financially. It’s silly to have her do something you don’t believe she should just to make spending the money seem worthwhile. The actual cost of that is her learning you don’t mean what you say.

The immediate consequences thing is a load of old tosh. In many situations immediate consequences are impossible. I also hear people bleat on how consequences MUST relate to the action. How exactly do you do that when a child pushes another one over?

I would be putting my foot down and saying she isn’t going. The only reason you are considering her going is, that the better option for you and OH, giving you a break. That’s the wrong reason for her to go. Just next time, make sure the consequence isn’t going to be worse for you than it is for them 😉

DH should be reminded he doesn’t get to come in and undo what you’ve done. If he disagrees, you can chat about what will happen next time, but this time you need to present a united front.

If she's 4 and in Reception, she understands consequences. I wouldn't let her go.

She’s 4 not 2, perfectly capable of understanding non-immediate consequences.

I would follow through, or if your husband insists on letting her go then you need to sit down with him when the children are in bed and talk through strategy. He needs to not undermine you - but you might also need to learn not to be excessive (coming from my own experience here - I don’t think the punishment here is excessive at all).

Good luck!

You need immediate consequences and I would let her go. She is only 4 and would not understand. Is she a bit jealous of the baby? Is that the issue. Do you spend one on one time with her

Absolutely follow it through. And have a word with your dh for undermining you.

I do feel quite worn down. She’s a lovely girl when she wants to be, intelligent and funny and loving but her behaviour can be out of control. She really hurts my youngest who is 15 months now. She says no if I ask her to do anything and breaks all of her toys and things in the house. She will scream and attack me if I say no to anything. It’s just become really difficult. I told her that I’d injured my foot earlier and she said ‘good that’s good then’ It sounds insane but I really do think she hates me.

Have you asked for some support via your GP or school? The children I know who behave like that do have some special needs.

She's 4 and there's a new baby. Her behaviour may well be a shout for attention.

The baby is 15 months. That’s not new.

It's very difficult when you have made a threat to then not follow through. Even at 4, lots of children will understand that when mummy says something she doesn't really mean it.
For future reference, make sure that any 'threat' is actually a positive. E.g., if you play nicely This morning you can have xxx.
When you've tidied up your toys we can watch xxx.
Catch her being good rather than punish her for not being.
She's four, she's competing with a baby, she may be jealous.
Your dh may have a point but you need to sit down and agree on how best to parent her.

And I disagree that she is too young to connect the behaviour with the consequence, as a pp said, "no, you're not going because you hurt the baby".
Don't fall into the trap of going back on what you say.

Arrgh. Posted too soon.

I meant to add after checking for the possibility of sn: OR they have parenting issues, where the parents are clearly not on the same page and the child knows they are running the show and there will be no consequences. Parenting classes might be able to help.

Vital to follow through with your threat and also very important that the parents present a united front to her otherwise she will undermine you that way. Even at 4. If he has told her she can go then he needs to speak to her shai to backtrack ideally with you at his side to say he didn't know what you had said/everything she had done when he said she could go.

She is only four. Some children at that age are not even fully toilet trained.

I think the punishment was too severe for her to grasp how she would feel when that punishment was enforced - hours down the line especially if she was already in naughty mode.

As a parent you can absolutely go back on a threat if you reconsider it to be too harsh.

I could be a little arse in the morning before school because I was tired/anxious about school. Threats went over my head. When I came out of school happy to see my mum - she would then soon knock that out of me by enforcing a punishment I’d long forgotten about.

She’s crying out for attention. Go back to basics with her.

You don’t always have to punish kids to get them to learn a lesson.

She's much too young to connect her pushing the baby (jealousy of baby getting attention from you) and not being allowed to go to an event much later.
Punishments and admonishments should be swift, not deferred.

I don’t agree that the punishment is too far from the event.
She was specifically told she wouldn’t be going and continued to misbehave and pushed the baby over and then laughed about it.
It sounds as though she’s aware

It's not effective behavioural management regardless of age. As others have said reinforcement needs to be immediate and positive reinforcement is far more effective and ignoring unwanted behaviours in order to shape the behaviour.

Star charts provide immediate positive reinforcement because you would praise desired behaviour immediately and reward with a star and ignore undesirable behaviour to shape up behaviour and extinguish unwanted behaviours.

A delayed reinforcement schedule like this OP is unlikely to be effective. However don't beat yourself up.

Sounds like you and your DP are not on the same page with consequences, OP. That would make dealing with your DD's bad behaviour even more problematic and give her the opportunity to carry on, knowing that she'll still get what she wants anyway.

I have had similar problems with my DH because he doesn't know how to deal with problem behaviour, so he uses bribery (usually with chocolate) to get DS2 to stop being a PITA - this, of course, is a very poor and short term strategy, and then he has a sugared-up DS2 to deal with as a result. Of course, his game plan is that I will be back by then and have to deal with it myself but sometimes that backfires on him.

I think, since you've told her that she can't go because of her bad behaviour, then she shouldn't go. I think your DP should back off and let this one go, but then you need to have a serious chat with him about him undermining your authority with your DD, because she will know that she can get away with anything with him. You both need to be on the same page to get any improvement from her.

I have some similar issues with my almost 4yr old, not quite as bad but it was heading that way. I realised that most of his bad behavior was stemming from an anxiety about having me (he has a little sister who does sometimes take my attention and Co sleeps with me now for example) consequences do not touch this behaviour because it is already coming from a place of bad feelings, punishment just creates more bad feelings. I sit with him when he loses it until he cries it out and have started to try to give him more of my time generally (less housework gets done but he's more important) his behaviour is improving massively and it's really obvious the days I do it well and he's an angel compared to the days I'm tired busy and he's a nightmare.

We do still get occasional behaviour that is just naughty and I agree with the people that have said consequences need to be more immediate, my son certainly wouldn't remember clearly enough what he did to lose a treat that many hours later.

Hope that makes sense, aha parenting has some helpful stuff about why children hit/hurt others and how to deal with it best.

She’s 4, she’s more than capable of understanding that she can’t go to an event this evening because she hurt someone this morning. Doubly so if she’s at school.

She may be looking for attention over the 15 month old, but that’s absolutely no excuse for hurting others. No event tonight and start again tomorrow. I would do my best to find some positive attention opportunities in the near future. Your DH is being a bit crap in undermining you, especially given he doesn’t appear to have to deal with her behaviour.

Slightly off-topic but not much (rewards for better behaviour) - a friend was telling me about her nephew, who was late toilet-training and would wet the bed regularly. His parents decided, in desperation, to offer him a "prize" if he had a dry bed in the morning. So they bought a heap of little prizes - toys, sweets etc. - and he started to stay dry overnight. Then they thought "well he's cracked it" and stopped with the prizes. The very next night, he wet the bed. They asked him why and he said "because you stopped giving me prizes". He was 4.
4 is not too young. 4 is well capable of being very devious (mine was too!) and equally capable of understanding that actions --> consequences.

Total nonsense that a 4 year old can't understand consequences. Of course they can!

You made a threat, you need to stick with it. For God's sake don't start apologising and backing out, you'll just confuse the child.

Clear and consistent boundaries.

All this ignore the bad behavior and praise the good nonsense drives me nuts. That is just raising children who have no idea how to behave. Children rent born with the ability to know tight from wrong so they try things out to see what happens, they need to be told if the behaviour is wrong. Do you really think when children go to nursery and school that the teachers just ignore bad behaviour?
Yes praise the good, but also correct the bad. Children need to learn that there are consequences to actions.

She was warned and then pushed the baby over and laughed. The consequence is absolutely fine. Not following it through simply shows that it's OK to push her sibling over.

It’s difficult, I don’t think I’d stop her going under the circumstances - she won’t really get the delay between behaviour and punishment. I highly recommend reading The Explosive Child by Ross Greene which will help you understand why she’s behaving like this and how to approach it. It’s really helped us with DD (aged 5).

I think you should say to her that you've thought about it, and decided that you were wrong to say she couldn't go, and have changed your mind, but that you don't like your baby being hurt and ask how she could make baby feel better.

That way you are modelling sensible behaviour - that it is ok to change your mind having thought about something - and not making it about your DH overruling you. It also goes towards her making amends to sister.

We never use threats or punishments (just natural consequences), the way I see it is if someone threatened me I'd be bloody outraged and hate and lack respect for the person who did it. I'd also really resent my sister in this instance.

I was one of the ignore the bad.. posters I really didn't mean let children run riot that isn't how positive reinforcement works but bypre empting behaviour you can cut out stop that /don't/ no which children can learn to ignore and push further. Children can still be told off if they need it.