Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think perhaps schools should insist on vaccinations.

388 replies

Lovestonap · 02/03/2019 00:16

Good animal boarding kennels etc will not take animals without their vaccinations up to date.
Should our schools be able to insist on a completed course of childhood vaccinations (up to age appropriate) before giving a space at a school? Obviously children who are unable to be vaccinated would have a medical exemption certificate. I think this would be a good idea, but then I'm wondering if this is a nanny state too far thing. Probably implications for human rights I haven't considered.

OP posts:
LoniceraJaponica · 02/03/2019 10:39

DD volunteers on the children's ward at the local hospital. She had to provide proof of her immunisation record.

trancepants · 02/03/2019 10:45

How is it helpful, for a child with uneducated anti-vaccine parents to be excluded from school......Surely that just creates another uneducated anti-vaccine person.

I agree with this. As it is there is a very high rate of anti-vax parents in the home education community. That's not to say that all or even most home-educating families don't vaccinate, just that there is almost certainly a higher proportion of unvaccinated children that are home educated than there is in schools. If vaccinations were a school requirement it wouldn't push up rates of vaccination, it would push up rates of home educators. And it's been my experience of home educators that those who don't vaccinate tend to drift together, not so much specifically because of vaccinations but because they have other values in common. So the unvaccinated children would live their lives in a bubble of anti-vaxxers and their education about vaccines would be dominated by the idea that they are harmful.

I honestly think that if you want to increase vaccination rates there needs to be a massive fucking change in the way this discussion is held. It's been allowed to become a really polarised debate with two sides who mock pretty much everything the other side says and both sides being guilty of very, very selective honesty. I'm a proponent of vaccines, I've taken every vaccine I've been offered, I was told I was the first person in Wales to get the vaccine against whooping cough vaccine in pregnancy in 2012. My son is not just completely up to date but has had a few extras. But I still think that the "pro-vaccine" side is selective in it's honesty.

The truth is there have been verified cases of vaccine damage, vaccines are not suitable for everyone and some people are justified in their concerns. The diseases we vaccinate against aren't actually that big a deal in the majority of cases. I had Measles when I was 3, it was very unpleasant but it was fine. I had rubella then mumps one after the other when I was 5 and any ill feeling I had was vastly outweighed by the novelty. Rubella and mumps were honestly a good time. Trying to terrify people about diseases that they very likely had and have mostly pleasant memories of won't work. It can't. Especially if it's done as a form of gaslighting, insisting that those illnesses are worse than the cases where vaccine damage has happened. People will bed down obstinately if they are up against that.

The discussion needs to be honest if we are going to change minds. Vaccine damage happens in certain rare circumstances, so some people can't ever be vaccinated. Odds are those people are some of the most vulnerable to the illnesses being vaccinated against. Your healthy child will be almost certainly fine if vaccinated or if they get one of those illnesses but if you vaccinate you will play a part in that illness being wiped out. Your healthy child will be using their health to protect those who need it most. Those who were born with the privilege of health are for the first time in history able to use that privilege to extend protection to those without it. It's amazing. Getting a vaccine makes you a fucking superhero.

Let people with concerns feel listened to rather than dismissed and gaslighted. Diminish the power of those who use that feeling of being afraid and unheard into promotion of woo. Let people feel that their concerns were real but possibly misplaced. Let them feel powerful in their social responsibility to the less fortunate. Let kids feel like powerful protectors when they have been vaccinated rather than potential victims who needed saving. The vaccine is less of a shield for them but a way of extending their own health as a shield that protects everyone. Kids will want to be part of that, so even if their parents are too bedded into the selfishness by their fears, those kids will be arranging their own vaccines at 18 and vaccinating their own.

Takethebuscuitandthesink · 02/03/2019 10:47

YAB unbelievably U

You can’t force other people to make decisions for their children. That is said as a strongly pro vaccination parent. If you care so much get your own kids vaccinated. In this country we seem to be sleepwalking into a dictatorship with constant erosion of freedoms and civil liberties and measures like this don’t help.

greenelephantscarf · 02/03/2019 10:49

I don't think vacvjnation should be mandatory, but I think germany has it right on this one.
the last couple of years when applying for school (school is mandatory) you either have to prove that dc were vaccinated or if not that you have had a consultation with a dr about vaccinations.

Onehandinmypocket · 02/03/2019 10:53

@RollerJed You do not need to have full vaccination history to attend school in Aus.

To the OP, you are being absolutely unreasonable. Bodily autonomy is more important than your inability to think critically and contain your hysteria. Stop this nonsense. Honestly.

FullOfJellyBeans · 02/03/2019 10:56

Schools have enough to do-their role is education not medical one. Who’s supposed to do this “checking up”??

Easy the education authority just like happens in other countries. They already "check up" that you've used the correct address it's just one more document. Easy. When I've moved abroad I had to prove both my kids had been vaccinated. I was happy to do this.

KissingInTheRain · 02/03/2019 10:56

In the UK, most unvaccinated children are not offspring of parents with strong views on vaccination, rather they are in deprived areas where parents are apathetic and can't be bothered to take the child to the clinic.

Is there evidence for that? I was told - but have no evidence - that the biggest group of unvaccinated children are those with consciously anti-vaxx parents.

I find it odd that people think it’s oppressive to require children to be vaccinated if they are to mix with other children in schools etc. Presumably people who think that way wouldn’t have a problem with a child known to have an infectious disease going out and about. In both cases the child would promote the disease taking hold and spreading, and doing terrible damage.

FullOfJellyBeans · 02/03/2019 10:57

"if you care so much vaccinate your own child"

Don't be so idiotic. Herd immunity doesn't work like that and I care about children if they don't happen to mine.

Onehandinmypocket · 02/03/2019 11:02

How does 'herd immunity' work then? Because I know most adults haven't been vaccinated and you know how many of them continue to enter the public sphere when ill? How many don't wash their hands or cover their faces? So are illnesses only spread through children or is herd immunity actually a load of bollocks?

SinkGirl · 02/03/2019 11:02

Australia withhold benefits I believe.... and the Australian PM's spouse is a very senior member of a very prominent pharmaceutical company. Seems a bit dodgy if you ask me?

Yes, those pharmaceutical companies - so heavily invested in ensuring that people don’t get sick in the first place! 🙄 You might have a point if this weren’t standard practice in multiple countries and if vaccines hadn’t saved millions of lives.

You can’t force other people to make decisions for their children. That is said as a strongly pro vaccination parent. If you care so much get your own kids vaccinated.

Completely and utterly disagree. Not everyone can be vaccinated, spreading illnesses around schools then spreads to younger siblings who have not yet been vaccinated because they’re too young, and vaccines aren’t 100% effective.

Someone passed whooping cough on to my son while he was in NICU - he had his first day of symptoms the day he came home, a few days before his 8 week jabs. I had the vaccine during pregnancy - it worked for me and for his twin, but he did not have full immunity. The doctors told me he would have been much sicker if I hadn’t had it, but he still spent almost two weeks in HDU on high flow oxygen fighting for breath.

Some of these illnesses kill people (especially vulnerable babies), some cause lifelong disabilities. It’s a disgrace that we allow people to opt out of them for anything other than medical reasons. They are not only putting themselves at risk but others too.

If you choose to not vaccinate, that choice should have consequences, including not being able to potentially spread disease amongst others at school.

SinkGirl · 02/03/2019 11:03

How does 'herd immunity' work then? Because I know most adults haven't been vaccinated and you know how many of them continue to enter the public sphere when ill? How many don't wash their hands or cover their faces? So are illnesses only spread through children or is herd immunity actually a load of bollocks?

What does that even mean? This makes no sense.

Onehandinmypocket · 02/03/2019 11:05

@SinkGirl I don't know? You tell me. How does 'herd immunity' work if the majority of the population isn't actually immune?

Onehandinmypocket · 02/03/2019 11:09

I am sick to death of this. This, you people are the reason people are turning away from vaccines. You are scaring the crap out of people with this fascism. Do you realise this? That wanting the government to FORCE people into medicating their children (with drugs that are known to pose a risk) is utterly terrifying to rational people?

People will keep turning away from it if you keep this up. Guaranteed.

OftenHangry · 02/03/2019 11:10

@Onehandinmypocket
Here you go.
www.ovg.ox.ac.uk/news/herd-immunity-how-does-it-work

And I would really like to see some proof of your "majority of the population isn't actually immune"

Booboostwo · 02/03/2019 11:10

How does herd immunity work if the majority of the population isn’t immune?

Well if the population isn’t immune you don’t have herd immunity and it doesn’t work! [ grin] Grin Grin

You couldn’t make this shit up!

Onehandinmypocket · 02/03/2019 11:13

@OftenHangry Vaccines wane over time. Unless adults are having boosters, they're apparently not immune. So, do you have proof that herd immunity exists?

KissingInTheRain · 02/03/2019 11:13

How does 'herd immunity' work if the majority of the population isn't actually immune?

You need to read about how diseases are spread - by age group and so on - the true figures for immunity and the mathematics of contagion. I don’t think it’s for posters to educate you.

And best to stay off the anti-vaxx websites.

Separately, why don’t anti-vaxxers want to see the eradication of diseases, as with smallpox? It’s bizarre.

Onehandinmypocket · 02/03/2019 11:14

@Booboostwo So you have proof that the majority of the population is immune to the illnesses vaccines are meant to prevent? Can I see it?

Mmmhmmm · 02/03/2019 11:15

I'm shocked it's not a requirement here already, but I'm from a country where it is required to attend school. Even most daycares there require it.

JassyRadlett · 02/03/2019 11:17

Australia withhold benefits I believe.... and the Australian PM's spouse is a very senior member of a very prominent pharmaceutical company. Seems a bit dodgy if you ask me?

Jenny Morrison is a registered nurse.

If you are thinking of Lucy Turnbull, Prima Biomed/Immetup is involved in cancer and other immunotherapy. Do you have any evidence they are involved in vaccines and therefore there she would have a financial interest in increasing vaccination rates?

Or are you just interesting in spreading ill-informed paranoia?

JassyRadlett · 02/03/2019 11:19

Vaccines wane over time. Unless adults are having boosters, they're apparently not immune. So, do you have proof that herd immunity exists?

Your first does not lead to your second; most vaccines have a greater lasting impact than the original estimates. First error - one of logic.

Second error is one of science, and assuming that disease spread patterns are uniform across demographics. Worth reading up on why you’re wrong.

Onehandinmypocket · 02/03/2019 11:19

@KissingInTheRain I don't visit anti vax websites, I question things that don't appear to make sense or add up. My children are all fully vaccinated and I even opted for all the extra ones as an adult. Amazing huh?

Are you saying that adults don't spread disease? Have you ever been to a nightclub or a pub?

But you're right, it's so much more helpful to tell people how stupid they are, that their kids should be forcibly removed or die or that the government be given the power to override our right to bodily autonomy. That'll change peoples minds. Fuckin genius.

OftenHangry · 02/03/2019 11:21

@Onehandinmypocket
You know what's scarier?
2017 1.6 mil people died of tb. Estimate says new 558k of antibiotic RESISTANT tb.
2017 110k people died of measles
2015 hep b 887k deaths
2015 36k newborns died of newborn tetanus. 96% reduction compare to 1988 mainly due to vaccinations

I could go on.

Now THAT is scary.

Onehandinmypocket · 02/03/2019 11:26

@OftenHangry Death is scary, so is a fascist government. If you want to change peoples minds, you will not do it by wanting a government that ignores our right to bodily autonomy.

What countries are those statistics from if you please?

greenelephantscarf · 02/03/2019 11:30

onehand who and msf collect those statistics, so they are quite teluable