To seethe at articles like this - 'I didn't know who my friends were until I was a mother'

[Likethewind321]

This one specifically:

www.mother.ly/love/motherhood-helped-me-understand-what-real-friendship-is?fbclid=IwAR1DgYhJay05k6JEZ7s4i6blGZ3wwycCsbJhZFWB8rMf3KSq8aXR_ROXSYI

I wonder what happens to all those 'silly frivolous friends who only cared about going out and having fun' Those friends who were shallow, who never really 'got it' ?

I'll tell you! One of two things. 95% of them will all have kids too, just maybe a few months or years later. And when they do, they will then also transform into wonderful human beings who 'get it'. They may not hang out with their old friends but they will become the newfound besties of whichever mums they meet in clinic or playgroup.

And the other 5%? They won't have children, and will silently watch as their friends all turn away and step into the social world of toddler groups, playdates, birthday parties, mummy chat groups, mummy coffee dates and mummy nights out. Watch as they make new friends, friends who 'get it'. This 5% will be dismissed as having never been a 'real friend' in the first place.

And can they complain about it? No. Because if they do they will be thought of as bitter or envious. A bit lonely and sad. They will probably be pitied.

Well guess what. I think it's being childless in a world where motherhood is worshiped, to find out who your friends REALLY are.

YABU, the article isn't about you. It's about a phenomenon that new mothers experience, aimed at new mothers.

"But it's not about ME and I have it harder so therefore the article is wrong" is a bullshit response. Write your own article if you must.

I have a friend who is childless by circumstance. She feels it very much. She belongs to Gateway. It’s for women in her position. It is true some women abandon childless friends.

However I’m actually not reading the article as you are at all. I see a woman, who was abandoned by her fair weather party friends because she no longer fitted in. She’s saying the friendships were built on doing exciting stuff that she could do on a whim, costing a lot of money and probably involving lots of alcohol rather on a solid base. Her new friends are based on cooperation, support and tolerance and cost the price of a cuppa and a few biscuits.

It sounds as if your friends are supportive and you are supportive of your friends. I don’t think this is aimed at you at all. I have experience of being abandoned for being disabled / too ill. I think my experience is similar to that of the writers. I was abandoned by mothers when I was myself a mother so I don’t see us as different breeds.

YANBU at all

YANBU @t all

BOOM! Love the OPs last paragraph. Couldn’t be more true

I don’t think Motherhood is worshipped at all. There are many threads on here, as a previous poster has stated, with OPs saying how their friends don’t see them anymore when they have a baby.

Several posters come on to accuse the OP of being a baby bore, talking about their baby too much, or having the cheek to take their baby to meet them. Most of the time, it’s not the case. Life does change after children, massively. I think that if the friendship is strong before kids, than it will survive this big change.

That article was written by someone who had a child very young by today's standards. I think it's partly just about grown up friendship versus late teen/ early 20s party lifestyle big circle of acquaintances who might indescriminately be refered to as friends.

I don't think motherhood is worshipped at all, it's more a double standard that women are expected to do have a child (ideally two) by X age, be a perfect mother yet not the all consuming responsibility for small children impact in any way on their work, finances, friendships, appearance, relationship with partner, relationship with wider family, or anyone else. Impossible unless the woman has a partner who does the traditional "mother" role whole they do a traditional old fashioned "father role" ... Which will raise eyebrows and cheers in equal measure.

I am almost 30 and pregnant with my first. None of my friends have any children, nor are they planning to, it seems. I'm sure that some of them will end up with children eventually, as people change and life is full of surprises. But for now it's just me. The amount of people choosing not to have children has risen dramatically in recent years and to me it seems like it's become the new norm.

I very much feel socially outcast since I fell pregnant. A lot of my friends don't invite me out anymore, and I do feel judged by some of them. They love to tell me how being childfree is the way forward, and patronisingly say that changing nappies sounds much more fun than going to Ibiza and getting wrecked with a bunch of strangers they just met.

Some of them have been great and are really happy for me, and have gladly done pregnancy friendly things with me. I'm sure they'll come over to visit the baby when it's born. Those are the friends I'm sticking with.

I understand that you may feel like the loneliest path is the one where you choose not to have children, but that isn't everyone's experience. To me it feels like women everywhere are choosing not to have children, and those that do are seen as old fashioned and not having enough going on in their life - "she's having a baby to give her something to do". Have you ever heard the term "breeder"? I've lost count of the amount of women my age who have asked me why I chose to have a baby, seeming genuinely confused by it, as if it's a really weird thing to do. (And yeah, I know that some of my friends sound like twats, I can see that now and am working on making new ones lol)

YANBU at all. This sort of thing bores and winds me up in equal measures. Also the 'it takes becoming a Mum to understand the true meaning of life / love / kindness / sacrifice / maturity / responsibility'. I have a child. My life is different now, in all the predictable ways, because I have a child, not because motherhood has ushered me into a higher spiritual realm that makes me deeper and wiser and stronger or whatever.

YANBU- your last sentence- yes! Especially when dealing with infertility, people are so insensitive.

YANBU. She's chosen to interpret the situation this way, rather than accepting that she'd just had the misfortune to choose shallow friends, who probably would have drifted off anyway.

Your last paragraph is absolutely perfect!

I am one who drifted away from most of my friends after having children. Because it was our twenties and we were all finding our paths in life and drifted away as our lives took us in vastly different directions. It certainly wasn't because we weren't proper friends just because I was the only one who had had children. I'm still so proud of them and their achievements on the odd occasions we catch up.

But you do see that toxic mindset so often. It just screams sour grapes to me. Your friendships weren't meaningless and shallow because you drifted apart.

I’ve stayed friends with my Childless mates, I have a Mum friend who was a mum before me and we met and stayed friends for 6 years I’ve seen in her latest boy whose 2 now.

I’m friends with people based on our shared experiences and fun together. People who in short I like. I’m a member of a few Mum groups and have met new people I like but also people trying to be perfect mums. I’m a single parent so don’t fit the married mould.

I don’t get along with the perfect Mum types, but I do hide that and go along to the groups. 🤷🏼‍♀️ It’s social politeness but I regret telling a perfect mum about my swimming group as now she goes. She’s in a blended family, her husband has two children from previous. So not sure why she puts on the perfect routine.

Agree OP, esp the last paragraph.

I endured 8 years of infertility, during which almost all of my friends had children. I’m lucky, most were amazing - sensitive and understanding towards my husband and I without being patronising.

Now we are otherside (I’m at term), these same friends have shown that they were holding our hands all the way. And I pray to god that I do not change and retain as much of ‘me’ as possible as my friendships are deeper than children.

I’ve had my fair share of insensitive comments ‘motherhood is the single most important thing you will ever do in life’ during a ‘sorry for your miscarriage’ convo killed a long standing friendship.

I agree with you. That article is totally “othering” towards wonen without children.

There’s a big difference between being 23 without children and 40. Years of life tend to mature you, let alone adding in all the lovely maturity you get from trying and failing to have a baby.

What a load of utter drivel, YANBU.

Well guess what. I think it's being childless in a world where motherhood is worshiped, to find out who your friends REALLY are.

Absolutely agree with this. I was the last in my friendship group to have a child and it made no difference at all to any of them that I wasn't a mother.

YANBU

Well guess what. I think it's being childless in a world where motherhood is worshiped, to find out who your friends REALLY are

I agree.

Not worshipped in the way I think some people would automatically assume you mean.

Motherhood is seen as such an important job, the right and proper thing to do as a woman. You're not seen as a family without children or if you are, your bonds are not quite as strong if no children are involved. So often people without children are patronised about not having experienced x y or z properly without having children and like a PP mentioned, there's things like annual leave at Christmas etc... too because you know, Christmas is for families, not us pesky childless women.

The biggest one for me is that if someone doesn't have children for whatever reason, circumstance or just because they didn't want to, it's met with surprise, shock and questioning. It's definitely more socially accepted that women should be and want to be mother's and anyone who isn't at some point in their lives is considered the strange one.

YANBU.

But the writer of this article sounds horribly smug and the kind of person that would think whatever they were doing is the only true and correct path: SAHM - the only way to be as your children get the best start in life; WOHM - the only way to be as you are an interesting person with a hinterland and a good role model with a work ethic, etc, etc.

I agree with PPs it's when you go through a difficult experience that you find who your true friends are. And while I agree that friends can drift away over time, that's different than dumping someone because they're no longer in a couple, now a mother, lost their job, lost a child so are sad etc. That's not a natural growing apart, that's being a shit friend and really a shit person.

It’s not 5% of women who don’t have children, the most recent ONS statistics put the number of childless women at 18%. We’re a sizeable and often forgotten minority.

Yanbu, what a crock of shite

It’s not 5% either OP. It’s 20%, one in 5.

I think if some people are so shallow they can only be friends with those whose life reflects their own, they are very, very shallow and it says far more about them than who their friends are.

It’s not just mothers who do it though. Some do it to people of different social class or wealth or education level or ethnicity.

It is true that you gravitate towards people who have children when you have them yourself, you drift from some old friends sometimes but actual life long friends you don't. Some of my friends have children, some don't. Before I had my children some of my oldest friends became mums before me by quite a few years, we stayed friends because we had enough in common to maintain a friendship and the willingness to.

I don't see my "mummy friends" as true friends, the people I meet at baby groups etc are just people I have stuff in common with in the here and now. I've realised when we have got onto talking about things outside of our child centred bubble that actually we have zero in common!

It's a woman's choice not to have children or sometimes through circumstances (medical etc) it's not. I was one of those women that didn't want children. Ever. I didn't judge others for wanting/having them and i joined the group of least I can do what I want.

I was quite sociable before I had my baby and during pregnancy but post pregnancy I am too tired sometimes and TBH some people do forget about you. As in how are you feeling turns into how's baby turns into weeks of no contact or bumping into a street and saying hello and it's awkward. I've found it awkward sometimes caring for a beautiful baby but then having nothing to talk about really cause I'm not doing anything else (not demeaning either cause motherhood is hard)

I have friends who continue to holiday and live their lives without children, some with babies and some who are trying to conceive so I am sensitive either not to bore childless friends by choice or rub in to those where it isn't a choice? (Probably not right way to word it)

I love my baby to death but if someone told me they didn't want children ever, I'd still understand. It's not for everyone. Theres enough of a population so it's not as if we're gonna die out. People are entitled to live the lives they want to (without causing harm to others) without being judged. Women get it so hard sometimes through societal pressures and if you don't have a baby by a certain point, you're a career woman or a man hater etc it's ridiculous.

Plus the norm was early marraige followed by babies etc now it's women being later to have babies and that's a fault too as they're "leaving it too long" or "clocks ticking" etc

I'm fortunate to have good childless friends and friends who are parents but I believe that it's a result of always accepting and never judging others.

If all you base your friendships on is proximity and similar lifestyles, well, you're a pretty boring person anyway
This. I have a group of friends from school, half have kids bad half don't. We meet up with the kids or we use our husbands and meet up without, whatever the situation dictates. We share all our achievements.

I have a group of Uni friends, by fluke we all have kids the same age. We try even harder to meet up without the kids 😂

I have a group of friends who I volunteer with, I'd only know if they had kids if we're partic close, or I made a judgement on age (lots of young volunteers)

If it's TRUE friendship rather than habit and situation there are ways to work through your differences. If someone can't but wants to have children that may change things for them as it might be too painful but that's different.

I think it's sad the author never had proper friendships until adulthood