To seethe at articles like this - 'I didn't know who my friends were until I was a mother'

[Likethewind321]

This one specifically:

www.mother.ly/love/motherhood-helped-me-understand-what-real-friendship-is?fbclid=IwAR1DgYhJay05k6JEZ7s4i6blGZ3wwycCsbJhZFWB8rMf3KSq8aXR_ROXSYI

I wonder what happens to all those 'silly frivolous friends who only cared about going out and having fun' Those friends who were shallow, who never really 'got it' ?

I'll tell you! One of two things. 95% of them will all have kids too, just maybe a few months or years later. And when they do, they will then also transform into wonderful human beings who 'get it'. They may not hang out with their old friends but they will become the newfound besties of whichever mums they meet in clinic or playgroup.

And the other 5%? They won't have children, and will silently watch as their friends all turn away and step into the social world of toddler groups, playdates, birthday parties, mummy chat groups, mummy coffee dates and mummy nights out. Watch as they make new friends, friends who 'get it'. This 5% will be dismissed as having never been a 'real friend' in the first place.

And can they complain about it? No. Because if they do they will be thought of as bitter or envious. A bit lonely and sad. They will probably be pitied.

Well guess what. I think it's being childless in a world where motherhood is worshiped, to find out who your friends REALLY are.

@ItsBloodyFreezing well if you insist on taking one passage I wrote and ignoring everything I've said since then fine. Seems silly though and like you're spoiling for an argument on purpose as I clearly said after who I was speaking for. Shall we move on?

Having a baby is a life changing event, and it will impact how you feel about your life, your family, love, and the world around you, the same as any life changing event-
Cancer/divorce/grief all make you view the world and the meaning of life and love differently-

So what’s the difference then? Why is it ok for people to say that having a negative shit thing happen to you changes your life, but saying that a happy thing changes your life somehow makes you into a knobhead?

@underhereye. Absolutely spot on!

HollyGoLoudly1 it isn't as big a topic for men (though it is a topic) because up until this point in history and for the foreseeable future motherhoo and also fertility in general, infertility, fertility treatment etc. has a massively greater impact on women's lives than men's.

This is obviously initially for the absolutely gargantuan biological reasons, (fertility, unplanned pregnancy, pregnancy, birth as well as looming menopause and the idea of running out of time which doesn't impact men nearly as much) then after the birth obviously biology continues to be relevant (breast feeding, birth injuries, changed bodies, health issues) but eventually social reasons outweigh biological and motherhood compromises careers in most cases for a myriad of interrelated reasons.

In the eyes of society the buck stops with the mother, in the end.

People expect mothers to do absolutely everything they did before pregnancy whilst also being judged for everything connected to mothering by all and sundry. Fathers get only a very diluted version of that, if anything at all.

UnderHerEye There is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong when mothers say that women without kids don't know what real love is, don't understand real responsibility, or any number of things that some mothers do say.

@clairemcnam who is saying that though? (Genuinely asking, not being flippant).

There isn't anything wrong with that UnderHerEye

Obviously having a child changes your life and hopefully positively. It's suggesting other people you don't know from Adam, don't understand something which has various different meanings and forms for everyone i.e. love, pain, responsibility etc... simply because you've reproduced and they haven't.

If I said you don't understand grief until you've suffered from infertility, I'd be wrong. Because lots of people go through awful things and grief is different for everyone, that would be insulting to say someone who'd lost a child or been widowed. I can say I never experienced grief until x y or z but I can't assume that my experience is the pinnacle of grief for everyone.

Well maybe to some people having a baby is the biggest responsibility and greatest love of their life? I knew real love from my parents, partner etc I have to be responsible and organised at my work as people are depending on me to be so. I've used what I know and experienced and applied it. To me having my child is a different kind of love that I can't put into words. Love and life skills form in many capacities throughout your life and means different things to different people. You are no more or no less of a person for wanting to be childless or with child.

I have seen mums saying this on MN at other times and in real life. They are idiots. But it really does not help.
I could just as easily say you have not felt real grief until you have had a close family member murdered. And for me my grief was deeper and more traumatic than any other bereavement I have had. But it is deeply insulting to those who have been devastated by other kind of bereavements.
The truth is any big life change, we can only know how it affects us, not how it affects others. So no not all mothers feel they would die for their kids. Some, even if a tiny number of mothers, don't love their kids at all and would never put them first.

@BabyDarlingDollfaceHoney i have been told this since I've felt able to tell people I don't want children, ever

Well guess what. I think it's being childless in a world where motherhood is worshiped, to find out who your friends REALLY are.

This, with bells on. I am childfree by choice and some friends have had children and our friendship has carried on almost as we were before. Other friendships have withered because I’ve been hurt by having to make all the running and/or compromises (I get that some things have to change when small children are on the scene by making an effort towards me, even occasionally, would be appreciated). Other friendships have been actively binned because they wouldn’t stop banging on and on about “When are you going to settle down and have children?”. The small mindedness and lack of respect for my choices just became too grating.

I completely agree with the posters upthread who’ve said that some life events/differences do highlight who your true friends are. It can be very hurtful to find that out the hard way.

@UnderHerEye - there’s a big difference betweeen saying “X happened to me and it changed how I feel” and “X happened to me and that means I now see you as lesser because you’re different”. Not that I’m saying you’re suggesting this specifically, but it’s why the whole “You don’t know love until you’ve had a child” statement makes me so very very angry. Everyone experiences different love and in different ways - for someone to stand on a self-built moral high ground and declare ‘their’ love as superior to all else is fucking rude.

Well maybe to some people having a baby is the biggest responsibility and greatest love of their life?

I'm sure it is! I'm not suggesting for a minute that I believe people don't feel that way.

But you do see people time and time again on MN spouting the usual you can never understand love or tiredness (the two most common ones I think), until you've had a child. And then act completely confused when you say 'actually no...'

I think the love for someone totally dependent on you is a different kind of love.

The tiredness thing annoys me. It always gets compared to someone tired after a late night drinking and partying, not to someone who has been seriously or even terminally ill for a long time and struggles to muster the energy to go to the toilet. I am not terminally ill, but I suspect my terminally ill friend before she died experienced a feeling of tiredness worse than anyone I have ever known.

I have friends and relatives who don't want children and I totally respect their choices. I would never dream of saying to them that their lives will lack meaning. Only one couple I know make me feel a bit sad that they're not planning to have children but that's because deep down I think one half of the couple would like to and would be an incredible parent but they are sacrificing that for their partner who doesn't want children due to a long term degenerative condition. I would still never say anything directly them though.

I've never known someone say anything like his in real life to someone without children! I'm sorry for those of you that experienced that! I have two friends who really do bang on about how their lives are better than mine because they can still go out drinking all night / having one night stands etc! I think the fact is people can be mean on both sides of the argument!

Hahaha that made me laugh (in a funny way not mean) I honestly understand where you're coming from. I honestly do believe that women should not be forced into or made to believe they're invavlid because they don't want children. It was either in a magazine or news story months ago about a young woman who begged the GP to be sterilised as she did not want children. It is choice. Your body so your choice. You have to be conscientious either way though. I'm a mother and still understand the choice not to have them. Respect each other's viewpoints without being in each other's faces. This conversation may be upsetting to read for either toss or the coin.

It's just her view point and some will agree and some won't.
I'm not sure I could seethe at somebody else's view. it takes too much energy and stresses you out.

I think the fact is people can be mean on both sides of the argument!

100% I imagine that's true.

A couple of people have said childless friends should try to compromise with regard to meeting up if someone has a child. I agree in the early months.

But when DS was 6 months old I left him with DH and had a weekend in London where I met up with some of the women I'd worked with prior to having DS. We went out for the evening, had a meal, did the theatre, late drinks and it was marvellous. They work all day, in London, why would they make the effort to meet me in my local coffee shop 50 miles away during the day just because it suited me? One of them has a husband with dementia, two have kids themselves, one lives 150 miles away. What makes me special so they have to do the running around?

My friends also had to travel into London so all of us were inconvenienced but we did it because we're friends and value each other and we try to meet up somewhere central for lunch as often as we can to keep it going. I have a DH, he's capable of bringing up our child, so it's down to me to make the effort sometimes. Yes it took planning, yes it was mainly a weekend day or overnight on a Friday as DH didn't work on Saturday so could have DS. But they are my friends so we make the effort.

I also meet up with old school friends (I mean from 40 years ago) every year for a 'girls weekend away'. Most of them have grown up children, I started my family late. We have a great time. This year it's a spa weekend. We have a chat about the kids but it doesn't dominate. Lately it's turning to chats about elderly parents and issues like dementia and failing health. We have one weekend to catch up on a year's worth of news so kids often come way down on the list! I love my DS dearly but I recognise that his world is likely to be pretty boring to others after the first hour or so! I know I get bored in the same timescale about other people's kids so why would I push that on my friends?

DS and DH have their dad and son weekend when I'm away. Mainly involves a day out, trip to the cinema, pizza in front of the telly with the football on. They enjoy themselves and I get a bit of 'me' back. Because DS is heading towards his teens and his world doesn't revolve around me any more. I need to move my world forward too. He won't need me soon (though I hope he still wants me around) which is great - that's what I'm teaching him. To be independent so I need to get my dependency on him realigned. Yes he is my world, I love him dearly but he will move on to other, exciting things and I need to too.

I'm emailing an old boss of mine at the moment and we're arranging a weekend lunch meet up - so we're gathering people together we haven't seen in 10 years although most are Facebook friends. I'm really excited to see how everyone is doing. Maybe it'll be a one off, maybe it'll become an annual thing. Who knows? But it's worth the effort.

I think the woman in the blog is going to be in for a shock. Toddler group mums that I became friends with have moved on - their children, in some cases, went to a different primary school to mine. Then the primary school mums I met for coffee after drop off drifted away when DS started secondary school. Because they then had the time to change jobs, take up hobbies, voluntary work or whatever as they didn't have pick up. Many of them live a car journey away from me so meeting for coffee isn't so simple - they haven't got the school drop off in the area to bring them into town. So we meet less frequently.

A few of us still manage to meet up but it's like me and my school friends - we make the effort and we all compromise. Because if you want to keep your friends you all have to compromise at some point.

I don't think society 'worships' motherhood at all.

Mothers are expected to act like this huge event in their lives and the responsibility that goes with that don't exist and they should act like nothing's changed in all the other sphere's of their lives.

However, I also feel that women usually don't realise the true extent of the misogyny in the world until they have children or get to a point where they will likely not have children.

I don't think society worships mothers either. But I do think older childless women are looked down on or pitied.

Where is this world where motherhood is worshipped?
Take this week. Four of my colleagues in the office took last week off to take their families skiing. They are applauded for being sensitive family-orientated men. I worked all week, then have taken today off because it’s an inset day and I have no choice, and I’ve already had three comments about “working mothers”.
Which incidentally have made me stressed, miserable and has ruined my one & only day out with my son.

Motherhood worshipped, my arse!

I understand the pain of wanting a child and not having one, but worshipped. No. Not anywhere I have ever been.

Perhaps worshipped is the wrong word. I do believe it's definitely seen as the 'done' thing and more socially acceptable to have children than to not. I definitely think you're viewed as strange if you don't want to/can't for whatever reason. Not just by men but by women too.

Yes I agree it is the done thing. And if you don't have kids you are told you will change your mind or constantly asked why not.
Nobody tells women planning to have kids that they will change their mind.

Where is this world where motherhood is worshipped?

Royals. Look at the obsession with their pregnancies and parenting.

And if you don't have kids you are told you will change your mind or constantly asked why not

Yes. To be honest I've always found the pressure to explain myself much worse from women than men. I don't think a man has ever asked me whether I'm planning on having kids, when, why not? etc...