To seethe at articles like this - 'I didn't know who my friends were until I was a mother'

[Likethewind321]

This one specifically:

www.mother.ly/love/motherhood-helped-me-understand-what-real-friendship-is?fbclid=IwAR1DgYhJay05k6JEZ7s4i6blGZ3wwycCsbJhZFWB8rMf3KSq8aXR_ROXSYI

I wonder what happens to all those 'silly frivolous friends who only cared about going out and having fun' Those friends who were shallow, who never really 'got it' ?

I'll tell you! One of two things. 95% of them will all have kids too, just maybe a few months or years later. And when they do, they will then also transform into wonderful human beings who 'get it'. They may not hang out with their old friends but they will become the newfound besties of whichever mums they meet in clinic or playgroup.

And the other 5%? They won't have children, and will silently watch as their friends all turn away and step into the social world of toddler groups, playdates, birthday parties, mummy chat groups, mummy coffee dates and mummy nights out. Watch as they make new friends, friends who 'get it'. This 5% will be dismissed as having never been a 'real friend' in the first place.

And can they complain about it? No. Because if they do they will be thought of as bitter or envious. A bit lonely and sad. They will probably be pitied.

Well guess what. I think it's being childless in a world where motherhood is worshiped, to find out who your friends REALLY are.

Cside

So something is only allowed to give your life meaning if it's a negative experience? OK then.

It's the censorship I can't bear. Women expressing themselves and talking about THEIR OWN experiences and THEIR OWN opinions. If you don't like an article then you can close the magazine or shut down a Web page. But to come on a parenting site of all places to tear down a woman simply for sharing HER OWN experience about having a child is just nasty and spiteful.

Yes I think that's what people here seem to be missing... Motherhood can be lonely. You need people around you to keep you sane! It's a shame if you have to make all new friends for that to happen but... You know, needs must.

Haven’t read the full thread, but chipping in to say that I have two children aged 15 and 10 and my dearest friend in the world does not have children. It has involved give and take on both sides - she is amazing about including the kids when I am sure sometimes she could do without it, and I make sure that at least 50 percent of the time I see her it is without the kids. As ever, good and empathetic people are just that, and you both adjust to the things in the other’s lives that don’t necessarily mirror your own. My boys are of course profoundly important to me but I have never thought that being a mother is what defines my life, not least as I have a very weather eye on the fact that they won’t be around for ever and need to feel that they can head off and live their lives without me.

Claire: I know. I was dropped like a hot potato once it was clear I was getting married before either of them. I think it was partly jealousy, partly that I had a more “grown up” lifestyle to deal with (for lack of better phrasing) - I was keeping a house, planning a wedding, choosing what to cook etc, they still live with their parents and neither is in any kind of relationship so I think that’s the point where they “gave up”.
It was the promises that hurt the most. 😭

ILoveBray no but I can appreciate how one is more likely to cause offence than the other.

I'm not even saying I agree necessarily, but I can see the argument.

For me it's about wording, obviously no one can tell you how you feel about something but it's when others try to tell everyone else how they should feel about something or how they don't understand something else when really you don't know that person from the stranger sitting next to you on the bus or what they have been through. And maybe not you personally but a lot of posters do it on MN, and it's usually, not surprisingly, about having children.

To be honest I think people tend not to realise the impact of what they say unless they have been through the experience of the person taking offence.

I.e. I have suffered from fertility issues that made my life hell for a long time. Because of that I would be extra mindful now when speaking to anyone about motherhood because I know how much words can hurt when you're going through that. For example, I would never ask someone I didn't know when or whether they were going to have children etc... because for all I know, they could be me 3 years ago and that question hurt like hell then.

Someone who has never experienced that probably isn't as mindful, like with any experience be it illness, infertility, death whatever.

cause that makes sense. But this thread is advocating for not affording that consideration to mothers. There are very many very difficult issues and situations unique to being a mother. But mother's should stop 'whining'

I don't know what the answer is. I think it's a tough topic for a lot of people because of the emotional aspect of it. It stirs a lot of things in people I think, I know it does for me.

As you say, I'm sure there are sides to both. I think, and again this may just be because of my experiences, MN can be a rough place for childless women particularly those who want children but can't, which is why these threads cause such heated debates. Not this one in particular but I've seen some truly vile threads before about this sort of thing. Yes you can say 'what do you expect from a parenting site' but let's not get into the whole discussion about how, despite the name, MN really isn't just for parents these days. I'm sure they'll be another thread asking that question for the 7000th time next week!

Cside As long as no abusive provocative or combative language is being used then surely the onus is on the person reacting to what in most cases is an innocuous statement that they just have a sensitivity to?

That person sitting on the bus who I happen to have struck up a conversation with? No, I don't know their personal circumstances at all.

Does that mean I should refrain from making comments about children in case they are struggling with fertility? Or perhaps they have an eating disorder so I shouldn't mention food or exercise. The list is endless, and if we take that approach then we would all just go around saying nothing for fear of offending someone.

As long as people don't use racist, bigoted, sexist or offensive language then you simply cannot censor them based on a sensitivity you have about your private life.

Mumsnet is supposed to be a supportive community and was set up primarily to SUPPORT PARENTS. It's unbelievable that people think that they can come on here a slate parents with no backlash. The original post was vile, vindictive and bitter. There was no need for it. If the OP didn't like the article she didn't have to continue reading it, just as I ignore any sexist or misogynistic junk which happens to be online.

ILoveBray of course you should be able to talk about your children. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't.

Maybe it's just me, but yes I certainly would refrain from telling a stranger that they wouldn't understand love, pain, responsibility, tiredness etc... until they'd experienced something I had whether that be children or not, which was the whole point I was making and which you do see here often. Not that you can't ever discuss your child.

And no you can't force people to censor what they say but, referring to my example above about what I wouldn't say to a stranger, I would like to think that most people wouldn't want to cause offence to someone and be happy to be considerate in the conversations they have.

telling a stranger that they wouldn't understand love, pain, responsibility, tiredness etc

I have never seen any mother do that based on motherhood. I have heard mother's say they hadn't experienced love /tiredness in the same way, before. Like the original article

But/and, are we to pretend that there ARENT experiences/emotions unique to motherhood?

CandyPuff in 'real' life no, I haven't either but on here... Yes I have. Multiple times and it's called out every time. People usually back track once they've been pulled up and say they meant it as though they were referring to themselves but the original post is all about how they do truly believe no one can know what true love is until they've had a child etc ...

No, but love is not unique to motherhood. Nor is pain, or tiredness or responsibility. A different kind possibly, yes I'd agree. But I would always take issue with someone telling me flatly that I don't understand 'proper' love until...

CandyPuff

I have never seen any mother do that based on motherhood. I have heard mother's say they hadn't experienced love /tiredness in the same way, before. Like the original article

I've not seen this either, certainly not in that article or on this thread anyway.

People have a right to discuss their own personal circumstances, whatever they may be. Sometimes a person sensitive to a particular issue might hear it in a different way than intended but that's not the fault of the person expressing the opinion.

Of course, but it's a unique set of emotions/experiences. I'm not saying it's superior, but factually it is different.

I'm not saying it's superior, but factually it is different

Well I would agree with you on that. I think the issue is that a lot of posters do act as though it is some superior form and that's what gets people's backs up. Not on this thread I would say, but on others I have seen, it's as though people think you are completely daft for ever thinking you could understand love (or whatever emotion we are talking about) without a child. There's a very real patronising feel to threads like the ones I'm talking about and it's horrible.

I've seen that kind of discussion after someone has tried to say, having a dog is the same as a child, for example. And, clearly, it's just not.

Yes well, obviously it isn't, I agree! I admit I do get a bit mad though when people take the piss out of others for calling themselves a dog mum/furbabies or whatever. Who is it hurting really?

I guess I just hate nastiness all round, whoever it's aimed at whether or not I would say or do that myself.

I obviously have a particular investment in this sort of thread because of my past and I do agree with a lot of what you say but always try to see and often do, both sides to these sorts of debates.

I think the impact of a baby on a friendship is similar to that on a relationship. We are told countless times that if a relationship is less than solid then having a baby will almost certainly weaken it further.

In my opinion the same is true for friendships: a baby will likely change aspects of a friendship, as it will a relationship or marriage, but should not end if you have a strong, genuine friendship in the first place. I have certainly found that to be the case. I have a handful of ‘pre-baby’ friends I have know for years and we are still just as close now some of us have DC and some do not. We may not see each other as frequently as we would like but the bond is still there and although we live some distance from each other I know that (childcare permitting!) they would drop everything to help me if I was desperately in need and vice versa. The friends who have melted away post-baby are not lesser people or selfish, I just wasn’t as close to them.

On another note, the PP who said it is desirable for a mother to be ‘totally consumed’ by their baby. Um no, it really isn’t. Not healthy for child or mother IMO.

I think when they're new it is normal to be totally consumed by them. They take every ounce of your being to look after when they're tiny. Sure when they're a bit bigger you can start thinking about other things but tbh for the first few months I think it's fine to basically only think about them.

I think when they're new it is normal to be totally consumed by them. They take every ounce of your being to look after when they're tiny.

I agree with this. I don’t like the idea of ‘consumption levels’ being policed. What would be wrong with focusing entirely on the baby when they’re just newborn?

Of course it is all consuming when they are tiny. Human babies are totally dependent. The 'baby smell' is an evolutionary trait that keeps parents drugged up/absorbed by baby

If you are not totally focussed on your baby it could die. So yes mothers of tiny babies are rather “focussed” on them and less so on hearing about their friends work gossip. Sensitivity cuts both ways.