To refuse this sleepover - 13 year old

[secretsquirrelthethird]

Namechanged for this, as don't want it linked to my posting history.

I have a 13 year old daughter (just turned 13). A year ago she moved schools, and has taken a while to settle in and establish a friendship group. So far so good, has been to some parties and has had sleepovers with a couple of her friends.

It's a bit of a minefield now she is older, but we insist on talking to parents first if she is having a sleepover and take her to the house so we can meet the parents (and establish that they are there!). This may seem a bit heavy handed, but I have a 22 year old, so have grown a bit wise and suspicious..... my daughter objects to this, as she feels it makes her "babyish", but at the same time she understands we are making sure she's safe.

She has a friend in her group who is a trans boy (FtM), who goes by a boy's name at school, and insists on pronouns him/his/he, let's call him James. James' friendship group is all girls.

My daughter has now asked to go to James' birthday party and join in with a sleepover at James' house, as two of her other friends are going. After asking, all of them are going to be sleeping in James' room on blow up beds. I have said no, as I would not let her sleep at a boy's house on a sleepover, and as James is identifying as a boy, I will treat him as such. My daughter said "oh but James isn't really a boy, he just thinks she is, so why can't I sleepover? You let me sleep over at girl friends, what if they were lesbians?" This is causing no end of arguments, and I do feel sorry for James if this is going to impact on the birthday celebrations, but to me if James is identifying as a boy, then I should be treating him as a boy in all aspects.

I have offered the compromise of attending the party until 10.30pm and then I will pick her up, but apparently the sleepover is the best bit, and I am just doing this to be mean.....

My older child was a boy, and whilst we had similar sleepover issues, we haven't any experience of transgender friends in this scenario.

Do you think I am being unreasonable?

'He' Cant rape her.

'He' cant get her pregnant. Your point is invalid.

Also, if it gets out why she can't stay over she may be isolated by James and James' friends for being judgemental . This happened to me as a kid for a non-too dissimilar reason and it was hell. Let her go

Glitterstick as I have explained it is “trans” as I refused the sleepover to treat James as I would any boy, not because he is trans. As I am coming around to thinking, I have been a bit rigid and perhaps trying too hard and have lost sight of the basic facts.

I agree with your new way of thinking OP. James is no sexual threat to your DD.

*PotatoesAndJelly

'He' Cant rape her.

'He' cant get her pregnant. Your point is invalid. *

As I acknowledged myself, in calling it ridiculous.

YABU for all the reasons everyone has already stated, go give your daughter the good news! ;)

I'm glad you've changed your mind OP. Your DD is surely old enough to understand a more nuanced argument. It's ridiculous to be so rigid with rules and will lead to her losing respect for you in future and simply lying and doing what she wants. She needs to know that you'll consider her point of view and your restrictions are rational and with her best interests at heart not rigid and petty.

IMO - YABU. I really don’t understand what the issue is here 🤷🏽‍♀️ Your daughter wants to have a sleepover with friends, why is that such a big deal? Will she be in danger?

By not letting her go you’re putting her in a very awkward position for when she explains to her friends why she can’t attend.

Also, if your DD was to have a sleepover would you only let the friends who identify as female attend and alienate “James” by not letting him attend?

I think your daughter sounds like a mature and unjudgemental 13 yo, tbh.

*winsinbin

I agree with your new way of thinking OP. James is no sexual threat to your DD.*

I feel, with clarity with the posts on natal sex and body parts, I have been a bit OTT, although the same sleepover rules - ie dropping her off at the house, having James’ parents phone no etc etc would have to apply.

I think this may be a good time to trust her andet her go with her friends.

I work on the basis that whatever the identity the body is the body and male and female teen bodies in the same place over night are best avoided in my opinion.

Agree with this.

Don't be the cool mum. Kids need and want boundaries, letting them sleep with casual boy/girlfriends is not giving a message that you value and protect them. Girly sleepovers is ok, but yes check it out, older brothers uncles dad's may not be nice.

Sorry *non-judgemental

I think James is probably not a risk but do meet him and the family and enquire what safeguards are in place

What safeguards, exactly, do you think need putting in place?

...Mind those pronouns?!

...James now, not Jane...risky that bane changing business...

FFS she’s still a GIRL. She’s 13, she wants to be called James and self ID as a boy. She’s hardly a threat to society as we know it. Get a grip.

Yes ‘OP’ you’ve behaved bizarrely over this, but at least you are seeing that now, not like some other idiots.

@springwalk - why can she not get raped, you do not need a penis to do that!?

I think you're right OP. Same rules for dropping off, meeting parents etc, and permission given based on sex not gender.
If I na few months she wants to sleepover at Bart's and Bart has a penis, you can still say no without given mixed signals or confusing rules. You can assure her she's not allowed sleepovers with penis' until she's old enough to raise a child

@springwalk - why can she not get raped, you do not need a penis to do that!?
You clearly don’t understand the definition of rape Thadeus.

Thadeus <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?q=www.bbc.co.uk/schools/pshe_and_citizenship/pdf/rape.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwin1-L19crgAhWD1-AKHZGSBogQFjAHegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3TgC4D0qV8fGCcvJaw3_cw" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">definition of rape under UK law Only a person with a penis can commit rape.

IncrediblySadToo
Presumably by safeguarding posters mean knowing the address, parents phone no, giving them yours etc?

I don’t think I have acted bizarrely, this is a new situation to me.

a summary of the convo:
Dd: can I have a sleepover at James for his birthday?
Me: you can go to the party, but you’re not sleeping over with a boy.
Dd: James isn’t really a boy, it’s a girl pretending to be a boy.
Me: if he is saying he is a boy, we should treat him like any other boy so no.

I don’t see how that was acting bizarrely? In my view me saying that she could sleepover was like me agreeing that James was not a boy.

I can see now looking at it from a natal sex point of view that I was too rigid and should have just said that she could go, with the usual rules.

Up until that sleepover conversation I had never heard of James so did not know that he was trans.

My apologies, I was only speaking from experience 30 years ago. I now stand corrected.

Is there going to be a dad present at the sleepover? If it’s really assault your worried about then you should say no on this basis. If you’re not worried about a random grown man then you probably don’t need to worry about a 12 year old boy/girl

Frankly I think that being so keen to affirm this young child’s request to be considered a boy, backs that child into a corner which might be very hard to come out of. I realise you want to be kind op, but what seems kind in the here and now might not be kind at all looking forward.
Almost all children who have gender discomfort and don’t want to be the sex they are, desist and come to terms with their sex once they have gone through puberty. Why would anyone push a 13 year old girl on the path to sterilisation and breast amputation , when simply waiting and ignoring might be far more helpful to that child in the long term ?

I agree with the conclusion you’ve drawn. Good on the children for being inclusive. Hopefully this boy/girl will sort through their issues and come out the other side.

Kellen while there's sadly always a small risk from adults in the house, the teens are planning to all sleep in one room. If the father or an older brother were to sleep in the same room he would be a bigger, absolutely!

Despite the tangential discussion of rape or assault it's probably experimentation which is more a risk, and natal females can't get one another pregnant! "Date rape" could be a risk at mixed sex sleepovers but hopefully less so with lots of young teen friends in one room together, parents in the house, and no alcohol! Either way it's not a risk at all without penises in the sleepover room!

• he would be a bigger risk (missing word)