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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To refuse this sleepover - 13 year old

247 replies

secretsquirrelthethird · 20/02/2019 16:20

Namechanged for this, as don't want it linked to my posting history.

I have a 13 year old daughter (just turned 13). A year ago she moved schools, and has taken a while to settle in and establish a friendship group. So far so good, has been to some parties and has had sleepovers with a couple of her friends.

It's a bit of a minefield now she is older, but we insist on talking to parents first if she is having a sleepover and take her to the house so we can meet the parents (and establish that they are there!). This may seem a bit heavy handed, but I have a 22 year old, so have grown a bit wise and suspicious..... my daughter objects to this, as she feels it makes her "babyish", but at the same time she understands we are making sure she's safe.

She has a friend in her group who is a trans boy (FtM), who goes by a boy's name at school, and insists on pronouns him/his/he, let's call him James. James' friendship group is all girls.

My daughter has now asked to go to James' birthday party and join in with a sleepover at James' house, as two of her other friends are going. After asking, all of them are going to be sleeping in James' room on blow up beds. I have said no, as I would not let her sleep at a boy's house on a sleepover, and as James is identifying as a boy, I will treat him as such. My daughter said "oh but James isn't really a boy, he just thinks she is, so why can't I sleepover? You let me sleep over at girl friends, what if they were lesbians?" This is causing no end of arguments, and I do feel sorry for James if this is going to impact on the birthday celebrations, but to me if James is identifying as a boy, then I should be treating him as a boy in all aspects.

I have offered the compromise of attending the party until 10.30pm and then I will pick her up, but apparently the sleepover is the best bit, and I am just doing this to be mean.....

My older child was a boy, and whilst we had similar sleepover issues, we haven't any experience of transgender friends in this scenario.

Do you think I am being unreasonable?

OP posts:
Vixxxy · 21/02/2019 12:43

thats like reading 20 copies of the Sunday Sport and deciding men from Wigan are more likely to shag chickens

Its been a very long time since something on the internet made me actually laugh out loud. Thanks Grin

I get that this is a serous thread, I do, but honestly once the pink and blue brains stuff comes up..I kind of switch off.

OP, sex is what matters, not 'gender'. We segregate by sex, not gender, for good reasons. A young transboy IS a female as your DD has pointed out, so if you would allow sleepovers for all females, then there is no issue. It would be a problem if James was MtF, therefore male (but feminine in 'gender') but luckily, this is much more simple.

O4FS · 21/02/2019 12:47

Wouldn’t it be more hurtful to James if goalposts started to move now because of how they identify? The fact that Your DDs friend identifies as a boy doesn’t change anything.

mkmo · 21/02/2019 12:58

I think it's unreasonable not to allow your daughter to be staying at a boys house - do you not trust her?

I stayed at my male friends' houses for sleepovers in their bedrooms throughout my teenage years and I would be angry at my parents now if they hadn't had let me go. There were always more than just the two of us and it seems to be the case with your DD that she would be going with a group of people. Some of my best memories are at sleepovers and I don't think you should deprive your daughter of that. What are you worried she will do?

RoastOx · 21/02/2019 13:25

I think you are just trying to prove a point. You know he is unlikley to pose a threat.

If I were your daughter I would tell you I now identify as a male lol

Juells · 21/02/2019 13:44

If I were your daughter I would tell you I now identify as a male lol

Yeah, lol. Like ROGD isn't happening.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330

www.transgendertrend.com/uk-news-930-rise-in-child-gender-identity-referrals/

SirVixofVixHall · 21/02/2019 17:32

I think this thread is a perfect example of how people can be well meaning but so misguided that they cause harm.
Lets tell children the truth, sex is immutable. No you can’t be a boy, but you can cut your hair short, have a girlfriend, play football.
In no other area of life would anyone pander to a 13 year old’s whims in this way.

Original poster
secretsquirrelthethird · 21/02/2019 17:57

I have told her she can go to the sleepover and also offered up the outing beforehand, she seems happy with that. She told me I didn’t have to worry anyway as James is gay and likes boys.

I’m sorry to sound old fashioned, but I am tying myself in knots here - James’ sexual orientation is none of my business but I really want to understand so I don’t inadvertently make another mistake- why doesn’t that make James a heterosexual girl who doesn’t want to present in a feminine way?

OP posts:
Meandmetoo · 21/02/2019 18:06

"why doesn’t that make James a heterosexual girl who doesn’t want to present in a feminine way?"

That is what James literally is op

VioletCharlotte · 21/02/2019 18:53

Secrets this is where I get confused too. DS friend is F2M trans. When they identified as a girl, they were a lesbian. Now they identify as a boy, they're gay and attracted to boys. But.. are gay boys attracted to someone without a penis?

Like you, I do feel some of these teens are just very mixed up.

Juells · 21/02/2019 19:07

Their heads are being messed with.

Original poster
secretsquirrelthethird · 21/02/2019 19:08

VioletCharlotte
I wondered this too, are gay boys going to be interested in going out with James? Are hetero boys? The poor child is in a kind of limbo and I should imagine the dating opportunities are very low. I know it’s an emotive subject - but these are children - as parents we need to be able to talk about this and find out more as I am woefully out of date - in my day James would have been a “tomboy”, but James clearly wants to be treated to and referred to as a male. It must be very difficult for the school staff.

OP posts:
IfNotNowThenWhy · 21/02/2019 19:20

Quite frankly these children need adults to tell them they can't change sex. It's not an option. The problem is that deep down children beleive what adults tell them. WE are supposed to know better than them. We are supposed to tell them the truth.
Fucksake. I don't think I could be a teacher or anything like that. I wouldn't be able to stop myself telling the poor daft sods to pack it in. Save them a world of pain.

LilQueenie · 21/02/2019 19:42

That's not really fair. how do you know this kid and many others are not intersex? Its more common than you think and not just based on what organs you have or don't have. Its a lot more complex.

idkwhatimdoing · 21/02/2019 20:37

Hi, trans teen here.

James is female, so even with your "no mixed sex sleepovers", your dd should be allowed to go. This kid is probably very confused right now, so it's great that your daughter is being kind without losing sight of reality. The biggest thing you need to acknowledge is the possibility of ROGD, but your kid doesn't sound particularly susceptible to this so she should be fine.

About the mixed sex thing, I go to loads of sleepovers, attended by people ages 14-18 (usually 10-15 of us). Nothing sexual ever happens, and never has happened. Most teen sleepovers are just movies and snacks tbh. Now we're getting a bit older there's a few drinks, but that's not a concern for you.

To the poster(s) shouting "transphobic!", please stop. Nothing on this thread is transphobic - at all. Also, those suicide statistics are very misleading so I wouldn't use them as an argument.

PhilomenaButterfly · 21/02/2019 20:41

What exactly can happen? Confused

Original poster
secretsquirrelthethird · 21/02/2019 20:54

idkwhatimdoing
Thank you for taking the time to comment.
And for saying this isn’t transphobic, I must admit that I am curious to find out more, but not because I want to slate trans, but to understand the issues more so that I can show empathy and not cause upset. There is information online but it seems from two polar opposites and there is no middle ground (that I can find).

OP posts:
Karwomannghia · 21/02/2019 20:58

My ds 14 who said he’s gay has girls to stay and also boys. I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

idkwhatimdoing · 21/02/2019 21:09

secrets feel free to ask questions, I'm happy to answer anything.

Everything said on this thread is perfectly fine and respectful. Most trans people just want to get on with their lives - unfortunately there is a very vocal portion of the "community" who enjoy shouting transphobe and silencing people who aren't saying anything wrong. There is much argument at the moment between trans people themselves, with no middle ground being found.

I think you've handled this situation perfectly Smile

babydreamer1 · 21/02/2019 21:27

But 'James' isn't male. 'James' doesn't have a penis.
If when 'James' is older they decide to transition to become male gendered, fair enough but at present they are just a female bodied teenager going through what I'm sure is a very tough time and their female friends mums refusing to allow them to sleep over will just make it harder.
YABU, just let her go, nothing can happen that couldn't happen at an all girls sleep over, as essentially, it is.

natalia402 · 21/02/2019 23:21

If your rule is no sleep over at boys, then this includes James'. Him being able to get her pregnant or not is irrelevant.

Regarding the sexual assault comments, females are capable and do sexually assault other women (aswell as men). You've also got the concern of videos/pictures of inappropriate and/or embaressing situations being shared on social media. This isn't gender or who you find attractive specific.

Personally I'd hope to know the kids and the families well enough to make a decision, also that if they feel uncomfortable at any point they can come home. If my rule was no boys then no boys.

clairemcnam · 21/02/2019 23:26

LilQueenie Intersex is not common. Although the most common form of intersex is a micro penis. Although I am sure just about anyone would see a boy with a micropenis as still a boy.
Intersex people where there is ambiguity about their sex, is very rare.

NCforthis2019 · 21/02/2019 23:37

James is biologically a girl. It’s basically a girls sleepover OP, would you have an issue with that?

LilQueenie · 22/02/2019 00:17

it has the same occurence as being born a red head. not too rare and often you don't know about it.

strivingtosucceed · 22/02/2019 01:06

IfNotNowThenWhy

I totally agree. If your child decided they wanted to eat ice cream for breakfast lunch and dinner, you'd say no. But changing their WHOLE sex is fine? Should be a decision made later in their teens.

Frequency · 22/02/2019 01:29

I know it’s an emotive subject - but these are children - as parents we need to be able to talk about this and find out more as I am woefully out of date - in my day James would have been a “tomboy”, but James clearly wants to be treated to and referred to as a male. It must be very difficult for the school staff

DD has trans friends and a FtM boyfriend. I've found the best way to deal with it is smile and nod, use the correct pronouns or use them/they etc when you're not sure and try to keep up with who is who. We have Barry, Alan, Jessica and Emma coming to sleep over tomorrow night. Barry I know. Barry is her female bodied boyfriend. Alan I've never heard of until yesterday when she told me he was sleeping over but as Amy is conspicuously absent from the sleepover I'm going to assume that Alan is in fact Amy with a haircut and a man's t-shirt. My rule has changed from no boys at sleepovers to no penises at sleepovers so whoever Alan is he has no penis because DD1 is usually very respectful of my boundaries.

Rules for her boyfriend are different. Barry sleeps in DD2's room and DD1 bunks in with DD1 because I know they are in a relationship and sex is likely to happen and I don't feel at 15 they are old enough. Perhaps once they leave school I will change the rules.