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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think a Marxist society would be an improvement

243 replies

Downtroddenhousingass · 12/02/2019 09:06

Lots of people are so anti corbyn but there are many forms of Marxism and many could be far better than the system we have now imo.

Obviously corbyn isn't looking to replicate venezuela, that's been horrendously managed for a long time and was always going to end badly

OP posts:
MephistophelesApprentice · 12/02/2019 09:14

I distrust any political system that claims to know the future the way Marx did.

A socialist society would have many advantages over our own, but relies on a homogeneity of values and a willingness to personally sacrifice that is incompatible with the pluralistic and individualistic nature of our present society.

OftenHangry · 12/02/2019 09:19

Never worked, never will.

Patroclus · 12/02/2019 09:30

Dont be mental. Socialism has worked in this country well, marxism has ruined everywhere it goes.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 12/02/2019 09:32

corbyn isn't looking to replicate venezuela, that's been horrendously managed for a long time

And Corbyn could do better? LOL the man cant even read a book never mind pass an A-level. How the hell would he run a country?

Dapplegrey · 12/02/2019 09:34

Obviously corbyn isn't looking to replicate venezuela,
Then why is he such a supporter of Chavez?

NameChangeNugget · 12/02/2019 09:41
Biscuit
Downtroddenhousingass · 12/02/2019 09:43

The French system and Scandinavian are often seen as a form of revolutionalist Marxism and they out perform the UK. So what's so wrong with looking at societies that a functioning better and copying them?

OP posts:
StepLadders007 · 12/02/2019 09:47

Are you seriously advocating for Marxism? I mean, seriously?

BlooperReel · 12/02/2019 09:47

I would hold France up as a shining example, look at the yellow vest debacle that is on going, hardly a content population there.

I do not believe there is any 'movement' or theory that can create a perfect society, there are elements of many that could be beneficial though.

BlooperReel · 12/02/2019 09:47

I would not

Lolkittens5 · 12/02/2019 09:48

Depends how you define ‘outperform’.

They don’t have as much of their wages to spend as it gets taxed much more than we do.

I’d like to spend my own money not have the government spend it as much as possible.

StepLadders007 · 12/02/2019 09:52

A Baker works for a whole week and bakes 100 pies.

The government takes 98% of his pies to give them to other people.

The Baker realises he's working for next to nothing. Why shouldn't he give us his work and just collect the Government's free pies.

Hello Venezuela.

ZigZagZombie · 12/02/2019 09:52

Daft. People always point to Scandinavia and EU countries which on paper are more socialist - but believe you me as someone who's lived there for nearly 20 years - the truth on the streets is very different!

Downtroddenhousingass · 12/02/2019 09:54

I'm not advocating Orthodox Marxism, but the whole point is there are lots of different forms that most people in society (and here) don't realize.

The more you look into it the more it seems like a better system

OP posts:
Tissunnyupnorth · 12/02/2019 09:55

StepLadders007 - Sometimes the simplest analogies are the best.

userschmoozer · 12/02/2019 09:56

I like the Nordic model, which is a mix of soft Socialism for social issues (such as housing, healthcare, utilities) and controlled capitalism.

StepLadders007 · 12/02/2019 09:57

OP,

Are you in 6th form?

StepLadders007 · 12/02/2019 09:58

Just for you, OP:

IAmNotAWitch · 12/02/2019 10:00

Not met many humans OP?

All of these theories are lovely until the run into real live humans.

Downtroddenhousingass · 12/02/2019 10:01

Stepladders you show you really don't understand it with comments like that. It's like bingo.

WOULD JANITORS AND DOCTORS BE PAID THE SAME UNDER COMMUNISM?

No, communists are all for workers getting the credit they deserve. A doctor contributes more to society than a janitor does, so therefore the doctor gets more than the janitor, but they both still need food, water, a home, healthcare, education, maybe a car, etc. The doctor, however, might get some nicer items, more vacation time or days off, fewer hours, and other non-monetary benefits.

There is also the aspect that unimportant positions such as "janitor" might not even exist under socialism or communism, and that the duty of cleaning up would be shared among the people within a certain community (like a workplace or a neighbourhood for example)

OP posts:
Downtroddenhousingass · 12/02/2019 10:03

I like the Nordic model, which is a mix of soft Socialism for social issues (such as housing, healthcare, utilities) and controlled capitalism.

Me too, I like the revolutionist Marxism system.

OP posts:
StepLadders007 · 12/02/2019 10:08

There is also the aspect that unimportant positions such as "janitor" might not even exist under socialism or communism, and that the duty of cleaning up would be shared among the people within a certain community (like a workplace or a neighbourhood for example)

and if they don't clean up on time they got shot and their families sent to re-education camps.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 12/02/2019 10:11

A doctor contributes more to society than a janitor does, so therefore the doctor gets more than the janitor

So capitalism then?

the duty of cleaning up would be shared

So I have to clean up after a bunch of dirty lazy pigs and not even get paid?

FuzzyShadowChatter · 12/02/2019 10:12

Marx himself was pretty clear that to enact his ideals would involve violence and death. Most of his predictions were wildly off, but Venezuela is only the latest in a long list of countries where that has come true. None have reached his predicted end goal of paradise.

While Marx and Engles disagreed, Marxism is an ideology, and as such it oversimplifies problems and solutions. That oversimplification, no matter which offshoot we choose, will not deliver. There is certainly no evidence in the many times it has been tried that it will be any improvement for most people.

Yes, there are major problems with corporatism and capitalism in our current societies that need addressing, but I think it's about time people moved away from thinking that the solution to the problems in capitalism must be some form of Marxism. We can challenge the corporate controls of society without thinking that moving them all into state-control under some sort of 'working class' imagery which has never lasted will solve anything. Socieities doing things better or more equally does not equal Marxism. Marxism has specific criteria and we've seen over the last century+ that it doesn't work and those arrogant enough to think they could do it and not be corrupted by power are exactly the sort of people I don't want in charge.

And, I have absolutely no idea how anyone would put France or any of the Scandinavian countries as revolutionalist Marxism or revolutionary socialism unless stretching the definition so thin to the point of nonsense - they're all capitalist societies and none of them have had any mass movements that have seized power to give control of state functions to the working classes. Having regulations on businesses, a welfare state, or better unions does not equal Marxism. I mean, in the US, lots of people (including one of my high school history teachers) called the UK socialist because it kinda looks it in comparison but having a few elements in common doesn't make it the same thing.

Also, whether a doctor or janitor contributes more depends on the individuals. Sanitation is vital to survival as is healthcare and treating janitors and other sanitation workers jobs as something that can just be shared ignores that and their importance. A doctor who doesn't listen, who abuses their power and patients, and I could go on for days on this is not more valuable to society than a janitor who does their job well just because they're a doctor and most aspects of healthcare could be and currently are shared out. I wouldn't want any system where sanitation and janitors are considered unimportant.

StepLadders007 · 12/02/2019 10:15

Walking Dead Fan Girl

Have you heard of Adrian's Undead Diaries? Sounds really naff but is utterly amazing. I'm presuming you are a Zombie fan.