To think a Marxist society would be an improvement

[Downtroddenhousingass]

Lots of people are so anti corbyn but there are many forms of Marxism and many could be far better than the system we have now imo.

Obviously corbyn isn't looking to replicate venezuela, that's been horrendously managed for a long time and was always going to end badly

Read Animal Farm

According to Orwell, the book reflects events leading up to the Russian Revolution of 1917 and then on into the Stalinist era of the Soviet Union and communism.
The system itself was fine. It's when a few decide to use it to their advantage that it falls down and the oppression starts.
Right wiing politics produces the same outcome.
Basically, too many people are greedy selfish bastards who will thrive at the expense of others in any political system.

There are many forms of socialism. East Germany's government was based on the Soviet Union. That's not what Corbyn is doing.

Yes, this is what every socialist says. ‘They weren’t doing socialism properly, we’ll get it right next time’. If Corbyn does win power, you can bet in 20 years time an idealist somewhere will be saying ‘Yes, but Corbyn did it all wrong and this time we’re going to get socialism right.’

I really dont think Animal Farm is as important as people say. If you really want to see the true horrors of Stalinism read Stalin's Whisperers by Orlando Figes or Darkness at Noon. Still these only really deal with Stalinism and nothing in them is inevitable about all Marxism. George Orwell was also a committed Democratic Socialist whilst writing Animal Farm and 1984.

Yes, this is what every socialist says. ‘They weren’t doing socialism properly, we’ll get it right next time

That's not what I was saying. I didn't say Corbyn would get it right. It's an unknown.
What I was saying is that Corbyn's socialism is not the same as Eastern Germany's was.

I was using Animal Farm's central message ie that human nature will always sabotage any implementation of socialism rather than putting it in its historical context.

I don't have any faith in human nature though, so perhaps I'm biased.

It's an unknown.
What I was saying is that Corbyn's socialism is not the same as Eastern Germany's was.

If it's unknown then how do you know it won't the same as East Germany's?

This is how we get into things like Brexit, we vote for things we don't know.

Socialism/Marxism puts the interests of one class above all others. It condemns individualist. The person only counts as part of a class, there is no way or indeed motivation to do something more with yourself.

It's poison, but of course when someone promises immediate improvement from "redistribution" it all sounds caring and fluffy. And then the teeth come out.

Socialism/Marxism puts the interests of one class above all others. It condemns individualist. The person only counts as part of a class, there is no way or indeed motivation to do something more with yourself.

This ^^
It's not just selfishness that would derail a Marxist society but creativity, a desire to better yourself, being different. Look, we all agree that there are lots of things that are shit at the moment but as a pp said, let's just focus on improving them. Better that than a revolution (I mean, really!?) and only then realising how lucky we actually are that we don't have to fear for our lives if we say the wrong things or think the wrong thoughts!

If it's unknown then how do you know it won't the same as East Germany's?

I meant ...that's not his plan/intention but it's unknown whether he will get it right t.

In a hundred years no one got it "right".

Marxism is oppression. It's dictatorship of the proletariat over the other classes, and the other classes cannot be anything more than "allies". It's also a dictatorship of class over individuals.

It also goes hand in hand with the cult of personality. Think Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Tito, Honecker. Very similar to how Corbyn is seen now.

People just need to stop equating socialism with marxism. Marxism is a type of socialism. Just as I could say Francoism and Nazism are types of Conservativism. It doesnt mean I can equate the modern conservtive party with Franco or the horrendous south american conservative regimes of the 20th century.

Everything has moved too far right. If you arnt sure of this, take some economic policies of Eisenhower, Roosevelt and even Nixon and post them as modern idea on the daily mail comments or something.

Just as I could say Francoism and Nazism are types of Conservativism.

No they aren't. Nazism was National Socialism. It bore no relation to liberal (small ‘l’) capitalism at all. Nor ‘Francoism’, as the origin of fascism.

The difference is that conservatives, social democrats, moderate Labour etc all believe in the open society. Marxists, Maoists, Nazis and their like, don’t.

Sorry I dont even talk to people who think the Nazis were Left WIng anymore. Every single respectable historian agrees it was a far right movement, why do you think they all now support Trump?

Franco was an ultra conservative but as my whole point was its a sliding scale which people seem to be to ignorant to use on the left.

Mussolini was also the origin of fascism.

I didn’t say they were left wing. I said they were (self-declared) socialists. Of course Nazis were right wing as the term is usually defined. ‘Socialism’, the idea of the central organising principle of the state, has many applications.

You just don’t like being wrong. Which is fair enough.

Franco was a self declared Socialist? you're making this up as you go along. Tell me about how democratic the DPRK is.

www.indy100.com/article/nazi-socialist-right-wing-white-supremacists-history-twitter-mikestuchbery-7900001

I was obviously talking about the Nazis as self-declared National Socialists. And whatever Franco was, he wasn’t a Burkeian conservative, social democrat or other supporter of the open society.

Why do you ignore the points that people put to you?

Haven't all the sixth form rebels on here got studying to do?

Because its like arguing abut ocean currents with a flat earther. Its a historical fact so well established that Hitler wasnt a socialist, he banned trade unions, sent socialists to the camps first, spent the 20s street fighting with them, supported fighting them in the Spanish civil war and purged any socialist notin from the party in the night of the long knives.

And yes, you've just repeated mmy whole point. Neither is the post-war Labour party or Eisenhower' economics comparable to Marxism but it doesnt seem to matter (probably due to the red scare), the uneducated these days just lump it all together, as they never would conservative politics.

Lots of people are anti-Corbyn, it is true. Though not necessarily because of many of his economic policies. Railways being in public ownership has a lot of support, his Brexit support has the support of at least 45% of people even now, for example.

His unwillingness to act against anti-semitism in his party is a good enough reason for me.

Those who seriously advocate a real socialist/marxist/etc. system don't have any real interest in "the working class" or anyone else except their own supporters. Having studied Government and Politics at a left wing university and seen many of these people in action, with their completely unrealistic view of what motivates people and how wealth (for everyone) is created, and their obsessive concentration on political dogma and political processes (which 99.9% of people are not interested in), I'm totally convinced that a Marxist etc. regime (which it would be) would be a disaster for everyone, except that 0.1%.

Oh Lordy, Patroclus, you really don’t get it do you?

Socialism is not ‘the truth’. It’s not science. It’s not even well defined. It means different things in different contexts.

Moderate members of the Labour Party describe themselves as socialists, as do hatstand leftists like Corbyn.

If you cling to ‘socialism’ as a badge for fuzzy, warm idealistic beliefs you are, like I said upthread, just promoting a religious belief.

probably due to the red scare),

The irony in this comment and believing some strain of Marxism is the answer, whilst pulling the "not true socialism" meme

I've said about 10 times that I dont agree with marxism.

Who are you quoting about 'the truth' and science? our comment has no relation to anything.

*your