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Original poster

Abortions and men

286 replies

Lollypop27 · 03/02/2019 22:40

After watching tonight’s Call the midwife Dh and I had a discussion about terminations. We were talking about the how the state of New York passed a bill for abortions up to full term. It ended up quite heated.

I am of the mind that whatever I may or may not do in a situation has no bearing on what another woman would do and that it is not my right to decide for her. Any time any reason. Dh completely disagrees. Not on time limits or anything but he feels that the father of the child should have a decision and his thoughts should be taken in to consideration. I could kind of understand what he was saying but he couldn’t give me an answer when I said what if the woman didn’t want an abortion and the male did. Would he then have the right to force it upon her? He said it was a completely different thing. I disagree. If a male can can decide that the female keeps the child then surely he would be able to decide if she can’t?

This isn’t another thread about if you agree with terminations or not. Or the time limits but if you feel the male should have a decision.

OP posts:
AnotherEmma · 04/02/2019 14:00

We shouldn't have to argue this shit.
It's so painfully obvious that it should be the woman's decision and hers alone.
We can feel compassion for the men who disagree and don't get a say. But they don't get a say.
And frankly if any partner of mine didn't respect that, I would be seriously reconsidering the relationship.

PBo83 · 04/02/2019 14:00

@Magenta82

I was speaking from my own experience rather from male-perspective in general. I came into my step-daughter's life when she was 5 (now 12 with teenagedom looming...scary!) and, having no previous children and with very few children in my family, I was a bit of a newbie when it came to parenting.

So, I guess I was saying that I didn't have that biological connection and going into a parental role was alien to me (and I didn't want to mess it up!).

PinkGin24 · 04/02/2019 14:01

@MamaLovesMango are you not aware that contraception can fail.... I totally agree men should take contraceptive precaution too.

Flamingosnbears · 04/02/2019 14:12

@GunpowderGelatine
"I sure as hell would say I didn't know who the father was if it meant I could guarantee getting a termination over having a baby I didn't want."
Use the relative precautions and contraception if you don't want to get pregnant don't be irresponsible and deceitful and a drain on NHS resources. Abortion shouldn't be taken lightly and treated as a birth control.

MamaLovesMango · 04/02/2019 14:18

should she get pregnant accidentally, that she would have an abortion why does she have sex?

I’m not sure this sentence actually makes sense to me but if you’re saying what I think you’re saying, she is absolutely entitled to have sex knowing that if it led to pregnancy, she would have an abortion because it’s her body and her right to make that choice.

Or at the very least should she not make this abundantly clear to any man that she is having sex with?

If you are in a committed relationship you might well do this. But if you don’t, the bottom line is still the same, her body, her choice and if a man chooses to have sex with a women knowing this, this should be accepted. Let’s face it, contraception failure is very rare. There are precautions and extra precaustions that can be taken.

Body autonomy is absolutely fundamental. Giving up body autonomy is handing over your rights over your own body. So where does it end? Should we be able to force patients to have medical treatment against their will because their families want them live longer? Should a wife be pressured into having sex with her husband despite not wanting to because he has ‘needs’ too and ‘has a say’? Body autonomy is everything. There’s a reason why it is hard fought for.

MamaLovesMango · 04/02/2019 14:21

Oh for goodness sake PinkGin we’re not even debating whether a rare contraceptive failure can take place. It’s the risk you run by having sex. It doesn’t change anything.

Schmoobarb · 04/02/2019 14:24

Woman’s choice, always.

Of course it’s best if both parents can agree but if they don’t then the mother will always take precedence.

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 14:26

she is absolutely entitled to have sex

No one is entitled to have sex

MamaLovesMango · 04/02/2019 14:30

Umm no Weetabix. I believe this was the whole sentence you were looking to copy and paste:

she is absolutely entitled to have sex knowing that if it led to pregnancy, she would have an abortion because it’s her body and her right to make that choice.

It says something completely different to what you just quoted me saying doesn’t it. There’s a career at the Daily Mail for you I reckon.

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 14:40

MamaLovesMango

No. My point stands. No one is entitled to have sex, regardless of what conditions you add to that statement.

SaveKevin · 04/02/2019 14:41

I was reading a smilier thread on another (mostly male) forum last week. The perspective was interesting.

It is complicated and until men can carry the child ultimately they can't have a definitive say (once pregnancy has been created) as the alternative is forcing a woman to do something to her body either way,

Did anyone see the anne robinson abortion program a few years back? There was a guy on there who had an ex that aborted when he wanted the baby, he was adamant women should be forced to carry the child and hand it over. I felt sorry for him, he was clearly traumatised, but it just can't work like that.

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 14:43

Would you agree to any statement that started

He is absolutely entitled to have sex...

DareIAdmit · 04/02/2019 14:44

There's a new UK male contraceptive trial recruiting couples, I hope it does better than the last one which was cancelled due to similar side affects to the pill.

SleepingStandingUp · 04/02/2019 14:46

Weetabixandshreddies give over. Its perfectly clear MamaLovesMango is saying that upon entering into a reciprocal agreement to have penetrative intercourse, she is entitled to continue to have sex knowing that if it led to pregnancy, she would have an abortion because it’s her body and her right to make that choice.

Not that if a woman demands sex an erect penis must be delivered to her presently

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 14:46

SaveKevin

I agree that it can't work like that yet can still be devastating for some men and I think that we should acknowledge that.

Travisandthemonkey · 04/02/2019 14:47

Lots of things in life are devastating and out of our control.

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 14:49

SleepingStandingUp

In my opinion she is entitled to have an abortion if she were to get pregnant.

She's not entitled to have sex (no matter what the next part of the sentence is).

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 14:50

I agree that it can't work like that yet can still be devastating for some men and I think that we should acknowledge that

Who is "we"? Should the woman who has gone through the trauma of an abortion (because me must be clear that even a wanted abortion is a horrific and painful experience) be forever lambasted, be made to feel bad, pick up the pieces for him? Maybe men could just access the MH services available to everyone if they are genuinely hurt and traumatised by it?

Dimsumlosesum · 04/02/2019 14:51

Did anyone see the anne robinson abortion program a few years back? There was a guy on there who had an ex that aborted when he wanted the baby, he was adamant women should be forced to carry the child and hand it over. I felt sorry for him, he was clearly traumatised, but it just can't work like that

I'm not sure if that's the same chap as in the psychology article I read, but in the instance I read the guy wanted the baby, the woman absolutely didn't. She agreed to sign over all rights to the child to the father and he would raise the baby as a single dad. The child at the time of the article was about 15 months old. The man was saying he was basically suffering "PND", that he didn't realise how hard it would be on his own etc. I've been trying to locate the link but no luck yet.

It would be barbaric to force a woman to do anything against her will, as ultimately it is her body and mind initially that has to deal with a pregnancy/abortion, and ALL that may entail. No one knows how they will feel in the future, but forcing someone to give birth etc is a very worrying concept.

MamaLovesMango · 04/02/2019 14:52

Weetabix if you want to debate this issue that’s fine but don’t discredit yourself by being obtuse.

Being entitled to have sex and being entitled to have sex knowing that you’d have an abortion is two completely different statements saying two completely different things. That’s comprehension for you.

MamaLovesMango · 04/02/2019 14:53

An answer for your second obtuse question:

He is entitled to have sex with any consenting adult.

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 14:53

DareIAdmit

I'm not convinced how useful a male contraceptive really is. If as a woman you absolutely don't want to get pregnant would you trust the man to prevent it (equally if I were a man who didn't want a child I wouldn't rely on the woman to prevent it) and if a couple decides to get pregnant, the man stops the contraception and then the woman changes her mind and has an abortion nothing has changed. The man still has no say in it.

GunpowderGelatine · 04/02/2019 14:54

@Weetabixandshreddies well maybe it would stop them whining that a woman has "trapped" them for a start. You really don't see the benefit of a male contraception?

cannemc · 04/02/2019 14:55

I don’t like this idea of an ‘agreement’ that someone mentioned earlier, ‘breaking an agreement’. It doesn’t work like that. A woman doesn’t know how she will feel when she’s pregnant until she is. The idea that she does what the man wants or he’s within his rights to walk away - of course he is, anyone is allowed to leave a relationship for any reason, but framed in this way a always sounds like manipulation and emotional blackmail.

The whole point is that it is happening to the woman. Nobody is considering all the consequences either way, more than the woman. Look at the ethics around surrogacy. Women are human beings and taking humanity out of the reality of pregnancy means taking the humanity out of women,

Dexra · 04/02/2019 14:56

There was a guy on there who had an ex that aborted when he wanted the baby, he was adamant women should be forced to carry the child and hand it over. I felt sorry for him, he was clearly traumatised, but it just can't work like that.

No it really can't.
I didn't see it but I do think instantly seeing the embryo as a baby is a symptom of some men overestimating their involvement. They think sperm + egg = baby. They completely ignore this draining, often dangerous 9 month process where that miniscule embryo is turned into an actual conscious baby with skin and eyes and lungs and a heart and all the rest, entirely on the woman's efforts, literally built from her body.

I'm sure it's upsetting for some men, but that's biology for you. I haven't exactly relished the couple of pregnancy scares I've had, or the crippling periods, but I don't get to hand that side of things over to my male partner sadly.