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AIBU?

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Abortions and men

286 replies

Lollypop27 · 03/02/2019 22:40

After watching tonight’s Call the midwife Dh and I had a discussion about terminations. We were talking about the how the state of New York passed a bill for abortions up to full term. It ended up quite heated.

I am of the mind that whatever I may or may not do in a situation has no bearing on what another woman would do and that it is not my right to decide for her. Any time any reason. Dh completely disagrees. Not on time limits or anything but he feels that the father of the child should have a decision and his thoughts should be taken in to consideration. I could kind of understand what he was saying but he couldn’t give me an answer when I said what if the woman didn’t want an abortion and the male did. Would he then have the right to force it upon her? He said it was a completely different thing. I disagree. If a male can can decide that the female keeps the child then surely he would be able to decide if she can’t?

This isn’t another thread about if you agree with terminations or not. Or the time limits but if you feel the male should have a decision.

OP posts:
PBo83 · 05/02/2019 10:37

@Weetabixandshreddies I agree with you 100% regards the equal sharing of responsibility.

If both parties are drunk then they are still both responsible for their actions and I actually follow your drink driving analogy. Many years ago I was arrested and charged for drink driving (not my proudest moment). Had I have just had 'a few too many' then I would never have done it, unfortunately I had consumed enough to tranquillise an elephant and, as such, made the stupid decision to get in my car*

*(This was 15 years ago, I've since been to court, paid fines, been on courses, done community service etc. so anyone planning on preaching at me, save your breath)

So, in my excessive drunken state, I had decided that I WANTED to drive my car home, nobody forced me to, it was my decision. Yes, this decision was heavily impacted by alcohol and, if I had been less drunk, there's no way I would have done it but it was still MY decision and the blame can lay nowhere else than with myself.

The same has to apply for drunken, one-night sex (which, let's face it, it what we're talking about here). If a woman drunkenly consents to sex then she has made that decision and it's not upto the man to put her through some sort of sobriety test (obviously, if it's apparent to the man that she's on the verge of consciousness and is unaware of what's going on then taking advantage makes you scum and deserving of everything you get).

Even if, had she been sober, she may have decided against the liaison, it's still consent even if the decision is influenced by alcohol (again, not if it's clear to the other party that they are in a vulnerable state)

To get a bit 'blokey' here, in my younger days, I had 'one night stands' with girls with whom I never would have done so had I been sober (and I'm sure they would say the same about me in many instances). It was still my decision though and, however awkward it was the next day or how much of a ribbing you'd get from your friends, you put it down to 'beer goggles' or whatever and moved on (I feel the word 'misogynist being featured in many replies..bare in mind that this was in my younger days and I wasn't dragging these girls to bed against their will!)

Surely it has to stand, however, that drunken consent is still consent, otherwise we're setting a dangerous legal precedent. I would never have forced myself on a woman without their willing involvement (if I had misread any signs in the early stages then a slap or a drink to the face would normally set the record straight) . This was when mutual 'implied' consent was sufficient and we didn't have to bring out a solicitor and contracts to determine that a woman who'd voluntarily come back to your house, got undressed and got into your bed and not rebuffed your advances was happy with what was to ensue.

@ExplodedPeach - I don't see that the 'balance of physical power' has anything to do with consent. If a man is having to use his additional physical strength then I would suggest it should be clear that it ISN'T consensual. As for the pregnancy issue, if you're having drunken sex then either (a) It is a 'casual' encounter in which case it is both parties responsibility to ensure that protection is used, or (b) It's in an established relationship when contraception and the possibility/desire for pregnancy will/should have already been discussed.

Sorry for the long post...went off on a bit of a tangent!

GunpowderGelatine · 05/02/2019 13:24

I see the conversation has moved on since I checked in yesterday but going back to this comment from @PBo83 :

As someone who lost a child through no choice of their own, this is HUGELY offensive. 'Yeah, so what if you thought you were going to be a father and then had that taken away from you...get yourself some citalopram, a couple of therapy sessions and run along...now there's a good boy"

Sorry but why is it offensive to say that if someone experiences a traumatic event to seek MH support? I wasn't being facetious. I agreed that men should have the right to express upset but I was merely asking at who, because I don't think it's fair or appropriate to be having a go at women for exercising their own bodily autonomy (but I assume that's what people meant). On top of the trauma of abortion, women do not need to be guilt tripped.

MH services are woefully inadequate but if men want better support to deal with their babies being terminated then they need to fight for it, not direct their anger in places and at people they shouldn't.

GunpowderGelatine · 05/02/2019 13:49

And in response to this from @Weetabixandshreddies

I do think that she should have to accept the responsibility for her choice, as we have to accept responsibility for all of our choices

But what does "taking responsibility" look like? A public apology? A dressing down? 90 lashes?

GunpowderGelatine · 05/02/2019 13:53

I really don't think any of us would expect, or even suggest, that a woman dealing with a pregnancy loss should start campaigning for support services

Actually, there are baby loss support groups fought hard for and set up by women who have experienced losses. Where did you think they cane from? They didn't fall from the sky and they certainly weren't brought about by men

Weetabixandshreddies · 05/02/2019 17:58

GunpowderGelatine

I volunteer for a pregnancy charity supporting women and men who are affected by a condition. I do that because they supported me when I went through it so it's my way of giving back.

I didn't become a volunteer whilst I was going through it or soon after. I waited until I recovered. Likewise I wouldn't expect anyone struggling for support to go out and set up a charity to provide that support.

Maybe eventually but not in the moment.

GunpowderGelatine · 05/02/2019 19:30

@Weetabixandshreddies I think you are being obtuse now. I didn't specify a time frame. But who else should be advocating for better MH services for men, if not men themselves?

Weetabixandshreddies · 05/02/2019 21:27

GunpowderGelatine

Not being obtuse at all. The poster who raised this was expressing the pain that he feels. Your suggestion to set up a group doesn't actually help right now and we wouldn't suggest that a woman grieving a loss should go and set up a group would we?

GunpowderGelatine · 05/02/2019 22:52

Um I think that poster lost their child over a decade ago. So yes that would be my exact suggestion. And I am happy to tell anyone at any stage of their life to get MH support if they were struggling, I literally have no idea why the PP found this suggestion offensive

GunpowderGelatine · 05/02/2019 22:52

And you probably know this but you can not compare a man "losing" a baby to a woman losing a baby because they don't physically experience it

Weetabixandshreddies · 06/02/2019 07:04

I don't think there is a competition when it comes to grief. Everyone experiences loss differently.

AnoukSpirit · 06/02/2019 16:14

it's still consent even if the decision is influenced by alcohol

I think you should go and check the law, mate. You're wrong. Consent is not legally valid unless it is capacitous, fully informed, and freely given.

If you were deliberately trying to conflate somebody making a decision they later regret whilst tipsy but still with mental capacity, to somebody without mental capacity due to alcohol consumption being sexually assaulted, then that would be pretty vile. So I'm sure you weren't deliberately doing that.

Medical professionals have to weigh up whether their patient has the capacity to consent to medical treatment, or whether alcohol consumption means they cannot consent. Do you take the same issue with that? Do you think doctors should be able to carry out medical procedures on people who were too drunk to make a capacitous decision other than in life threatening circumstances? "Well, you were blind drunk, but you didn't fight me off, so I figured you were okay with it." What's the difference?

What about the police conducting interviews of a suspect - should they be able to interview someone whilst drunk and unable to make informed decisions about legal representation etc?

Do you also object to manslaughter legislation? Or just men being held responsible for raping women?

On reflection, is it only drunk women being raped you think is permissible and defensible?

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