Abortions and men

[Lollypop27]

After watching tonight’s Call the midwife Dh and I had a discussion about terminations. We were talking about the how the state of New York passed a bill for abortions up to full term. It ended up quite heated.

I am of the mind that whatever I may or may not do in a situation has no bearing on what another woman would do and that it is not my right to decide for her. Any time any reason. Dh completely disagrees. Not on time limits or anything but he feels that the father of the child should have a decision and his thoughts should be taken in to consideration. I could kind of understand what he was saying but he couldn’t give me an answer when I said what if the woman didn’t want an abortion and the male did. Would he then have the right to force it upon her? He said it was a completely different thing. I disagree. If a male can can decide that the female keeps the child then surely he would be able to decide if she can’t?

This isn’t another thread about if you agree with terminations or not. Or the time limits but if you feel the male should have a decision.

@GunpowderGelatine "Who is "we"?" - I'm assuming the poster defined 'we' as empathetic humans who care about the emotional impact of such a decision on all parties affected.

"Maybe men could just access the MH services available to everyone if they are genuinely hurt and traumatised by it?"

As someone who lost a child through no choice of their own, this is HUGELY offensive. 'Yeah, so what if you thought you were going to be a father and then had that taken away from you...get yourself some citalopram, a couple of therapy sessions and run along...now there's a good boy"

And YES, I understand it won't be comparable, certainly to the physical trauma, that a woman experiences and, trust me, I did my best to support my (ex) partner through it.

Who is "we"?
The "we" is society. Not necessarily the woman concerned, though actually, yes I do think that she should have to accept the responsibility for her choice, as we have to accept responsibility for all of our choices.

And mental health services are woeful. Maybe there should be services set up to support men through this if they need that support.

He is entitled to have sex with any consenting adult.

Again, I disagree. No one is entitled to have sex with anyone else.

Being entitled to have sex and being entitled to have sex knowing that you’d have an abortion is two completely different statements saying two completely different things. That’s comprehension for you.

And again, no, I don't see the difference. She's entitled to have an abortion. She's not entitled to have sex knowing she would or wouldn't have an abortion or anything else. There is no entitlement to sex.

I didn't see it but I do think instantly seeing the embryo as a baby is a symptom of some men overestimating their involvement.

I think that is unfair. It's not just men who see an embryo as a baby. Many people, women included, think like this. I'm one of them and I speak as a woman who is pro choice, have worked in theatres and assisted with terminations. I still see it as a baby and as ending a life. I just happen to believe that it's better to end the pregnancy than to bring an unwanted child into the world.

It is complicated

I think it’s very simple.

Body autonomy always, always takes precedence over anything.

It's not just men who see an embryo as a baby. Many people, women included, think like this.

I definitely understand a woman who has decided she doesn't want an abortion having this attitude. She knows, barring miscarriage, that it will be a baby so that's how she thinks of it.
But when I think of the Republicans in America who are so desperate to get rid of abortion, that's how I see it. That they're desperate to control women and that when they state life begins at conception, it's a statement that 50% of the hard graft has been done by the man and his sperm. If a woman instantly gave birth to a newly fertilized egg, no one would give a crap about it. It would be next door to bacteria or an ameoba.
I'm never going to like a man who determinedly sees an embryo as a baby when the woman has explicitly said she doesn't want the role of turning it into a baby.

So PBo83 what is it you're advocating for, if you admit that men shouldn't get to make the decision as to whether a pregnancy is carried to term? Because the decision-making rights is what was actually being discussed in the first place. I don't think anyone has actually said "...and men should never get any sympathy if they feel sad about it" because it's the decision making right, not the sympathy, that was up for debate.

I doubt that the suggestion of accessing mental health services was meant in a dismissive way; I was about to suggest the same thing. No one here is saying that the end of a pregnancy (whether one's own or a partner's) can't be a traumatic experience. And if anyone, male or female, is having difficulty dealing with a traumatic experience in their life, then surely seeking some medical help, or the support of loved ones, is a reasonable step to take?

There's been a lot of publicity in recent years about the shameful state of mental health for men, especially when you look at the male suicide rate, and there have been fantastic efforts to reduce stigma and shame around this so that men can actually seek out help when they need it.

You'll never get every single person on an internet forum to agree with you on everything. You might achieve more by working for a greater understanding that men have emotions too and deserve access to mental health treatment and support from loved ones, including in situations of pregnancy loss ... maybe you should contact CALM and see if they have addressed this issue and would like you to be a spokesperson?

I'm not trying to be dismissive or condescending. I honestly just think you are not going to achieve anything for yourself or society by banging on about a side issue in this particular debate. But I think you could make a positive difference, for yourself and for other men, by channeling that concern into something that's actually useful to yourself and others. Presumably you want things to improve?

CousinKrispy

You say you aren't being condescending or dismissive but if this was a woman posting that she was struggling and support systems weren't there would you reply with this

But I think you could make a positive difference, for yourself and for other men, by channeling that concern into something that's actually useful to yourself and others. Presumably you want things to improve?

I really don't think any of us would expect, or even suggest, that a woman dealing with a pregnancy loss should start campaigning for support services.

We expect men to be involved and support us during pregnancy and yet when we choose abortion we expect men to switch these feelings off.

There is no answer to this because the woman does have the choice over what happens and there is no compromise.

I do wonder what the reaction would be if say a wife posted that her husband had gone and got a vasectomy without consulting her. Would we all be supporting his right to choose and just telling her to get over herself (or to set up a support group)? I don't think we would.

We expect men to be involved and support us during pregnancy and yet when we choose abortion we expect men to switch these feelings off

I don’t expect them to turn their feelings off. I just expect them not to use those feelings to try and weight a decision.

I think in a stable, loving relationship then yes sure men should get to have a say - by which I mean they should sit down and discuss everything, and.that the man's wishes should be taken into account. Ultimately though, it's still got to be the woman's final say. Is this not what OP and DP were both saying?

I don’t expect them to turn their feelings off. I just expect them not to use those feelings to try and weight a decision.

Oh, I don't know. I don't think any of us can control someone else's feelings. The woman can choose to ignore the man's feelings. She can't tell him not to express them. Obviously she can leave or choose to end all contact and of course he can't then harass her into hearing his point of view but I don't think that he should have to keep silent about his feelings to her.

She can't tell him not to express them

No. But hopefully if he’s a decent bloke he will acknowledge that he has no say in the final decision.

Or in the case where women post to say there husband doesn't want another baby the posts are usually 50/50 when really they should be 100% on the side of the husband shouldn't they? His right to say no.

A couple of posters have raised this point and they’re wrong. That’s not how those threads go. Whether it’s someone wanting or not wanting a baby, man or woman, they’re almost unanimous that whoever doesn’t want a baby gets to make that decision.

Do you agree that a husband has the right to get a vasectomy without consulting his wife?

What should the wife's reaction be in this case?

Do you agree that a husband has the right to get a vasectomy without consulting his wife?

Of course he has, but there's a difference in saying I've done this / I'm doing this and lying pretending you haven't and making the other person live in your lie.

i.imgur.com/tceOgh8.jpg

Do you agree that a husband has the right to get a vasectomy without consulting his wife?

Which part of NOT getting a vasectomy comes with 9 months potential risk? That’s what this boils down to.

But yes, husband says “I’m getting a vasectomy” and it’s his choice: wife can choose to leave etc but she has no right to tell him not to.

We expect men to be involved and support us during pregnancy and yet when we choose abortion we expect men to switch these feelings off.

Speak for yourself. Of course I don't expect men to turn off their feelings, but I think the societal expectation that they should (which you are correct about) is a major contributor to the mental health challenges many of them face with sometimes fatal consequences.

My impression was that this poster's partner's miscarriage was some years ago and therefore it might be reasonable to expect that he feels able to channel his experience into useful action. I would suggest the same for a woman under those circumstances so please don't accuse me of a double standard. PBo83 my apologies if I read too quickly and misunderstood when the two of you experienced this loss.

Obviously you don't HAVE to act on my suggestion, but it might be more satisfying and useful ultimately than arguing about it as a side issue on a single internet forum thread.

Again, no one has said that men shouldn't have or express feelings. I hope they will do so and will be able to discuss them, whether that's with their partners, with other loved ones, with professionals, with support groups, whatever it is each individual might need. The question asked was not whether men were allowed to have feelings about the end of a pregnancy, but about whether they were allowed to make the decision for a woman.

I'm not saying that having a vasectomy is the same as pregnancy.

I'm just trying to guage how accepting we are of bodily autonomy. I have seen threads on here where posters have condemned husbands for deciding that they don't want another child. You don't see every poster saying that it's his choice and that the woman just has to accept it.

Of course he has, but there's a difference in saying I've done this / I'm doing this and lying pretending you haven't and making the other person live in your lie.

I'm a bit confused about what you are saying here.

I'm just trying to guage how accepting we are of bodily autonomy

Given we’re a diverse board I imagine that’s impossible to gauge.

However for me then his bodily autonomy is absolute. Of course that might mean the relationship is no longer tenable. But totally his choice.

Haven't read all the replies, but I've been speaking to my DS (20) about this & that he must always ensure that he takes every precaution not to get a woman pregnant (obvs unless planned) as once pregnant, that decision is out of his hands.

I guess it depends what you're talking about.

In a good relationship should it be a joint decision whether to continue with a pregnancy?

Yes.

Do men have the right to be upset about an abortion, have feelings, wish they could be a father?

Totally.

Do they have the right to be upset enough that they terminate the relationship over an abortion.

Yup. Absolutely.

Do they have any legal rights in this situation and the ability to delay or prevent a medical procedure?

Nope. Not at all. And I can't see any way around that that couldn't leave to truly monstrous situations.

I'm a bit confused about what you are saying here
I was a bit unclear if you meant doing it and telling her, or doing it and not telling her so she continues to think they're ttc

LilQuim

I've said exactly the same to my son.

Dalia1989

Agree completely with your post.

I was a bit unclear if you meant doing it and telling her, or doing it and not telling her so she continues to think they're ttc

Oh I see. No I meant telling her but not taking into consideration what her views were.

Yep, I also agree with Dalia1989.

The legal and moral right of women to make this decision has been a very hard-won right (in locations where it is a legal right) and is one that is under attack even in many places where it is legal. That can make it difficult to acknowledge that termination can be a very sad choice for both men and women--because that sadness and trauma is often used as an excuse to erode the legal right (one of many excuses).

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't dismiss the emotional repercussions of abortion or miscarriage for either partner. But protection of the legal right is uppermost in the minds of many of us for very good reason.