Abortions and men

[Lollypop27]

After watching tonight’s Call the midwife Dh and I had a discussion about terminations. We were talking about the how the state of New York passed a bill for abortions up to full term. It ended up quite heated.

I am of the mind that whatever I may or may not do in a situation has no bearing on what another woman would do and that it is not my right to decide for her. Any time any reason. Dh completely disagrees. Not on time limits or anything but he feels that the father of the child should have a decision and his thoughts should be taken in to consideration. I could kind of understand what he was saying but he couldn’t give me an answer when I said what if the woman didn’t want an abortion and the male did. Would he then have the right to force it upon her? He said it was a completely different thing. I disagree. If a male can can decide that the female keeps the child then surely he would be able to decide if she can’t?

This isn’t another thread about if you agree with terminations or not. Or the time limits but if you feel the male should have a decision.

@cannemc I completely agree with you and, on issues regarding termination, a man's opinion shouldn't be equal (but should be considered).

@GunpowderGelatine I mentioned joining MN, not because I believed it was beneath me and I was somehow some sort of martyr for doing so, but because I'm not a mum but wanted to get some decent parenting advice.

@Everyone who picked me up on it - Maybe 'hysterical' was a bad choice of words so sorry (I can't see how it's misogynistic though). I was purely referring to the bashing I was getting as a man (Yup! I said it again, why? because I felt it was relevant to the conversation, not because I wanted to march in and say "I am a man! My opinion is superior and you must all listen to me"). When you read my posts you will see that I'm actually agreeing with the vast majority on this topic (just from a male perspective...Ooops, did it again...sorry!)

@PBo83

Thank you. It would make for a boring world if we all agreed wouldn't it? I really hate the attitude on here that men can't have an opinion on anything and are to blame for everything. There are decent men out there and there are also women who the very opposite of decent.

I think I am in the minority of women (certainly on MN) who actually thinks it was the most amazing privilege to be pregnant and to give birth and that I feel sorry that men don't get to experience it, rather than to go all out to punish men for the fact that I had to risk life and limb to have a baby.

@ZaphodBeeblerox

Agreed 100%

@PBo83 you would be surprised by how many non parents are on MN, it attracts a lot of varied people!

FYI (seeing as you asked) look up the origins of the word "hysteria" - historically it was used as the name of a medical condition for women with MH issues, men believed that women's biology and sex organs sent them insane (the language is consistent with "hyst" referring to the womb, hysterectomy, etc). Women, at one time, diagnosed with "hysteria" were essentially locked away for the rest of their lives and treated appallingly. So it doesn't sit well with a lot of us to see women described this way. HTH

@Weetabixandshreddies

Thanks. I expect it must be fairly amazing to know you have the ability to grown another human life. I'll be honest though, whilst I'm in awe of those that do it, I am in no way envious of the physical side of pregnancy as it looks like hard bloody work!

@GunpowderGelatine - Well, I've learned something today and, in that case, my choice of wording was very poor.

Men have two chances to NOT have a child 1) By not having sex 2) by having sex and putting something on the end of it.

There fixed it for you.

You didn't really fix it because contraception can fail so the only sure way to prevent pregnancy is not to have sex.

Maybe all men who don't want children should refuse to have sex with their wives and girlfriends. There, fixed that for you.

However the flip side is I want a sterilisation. I was refused, the reason being “I might meet someone who wants children”.

That's different though. That's a dr refusing to perform a surgery on you, not your husband being asked for his permission for you to be sterilised, which certainly used to happen to men.

@Weetabixandshreddies I loved pregnancy too, and (though no one ever believes me) I loved giving birth, it was exciting and, apart from the pain, a lovely experience. But I had the good fortune of having easy pregnancies, had I had illnesses or morning sickness I might be saying different! However, that doesn't take away from the fact that, if you aren't supported it's a hard reality to face, and a risky position to be in medically for anyone. People (often men) downplay women's role in pregnancy and childbirth and often treat them as nothing more than vessels to deliver their mini-me's. Look how many people say, after a hard labour or EMCS "well as long as baby is OK that's all that matters".

Well at least you've admitted that much @PBo83 every day is a school day!

Maybe all men who don't want children should refuse to have sex with their wives and girlfriends

I think less people would be disappointed with this than you think

If a man and a woman have consensual sex, and they use contraception, and they both agree that they do not want a child, then an early term abortion is the only sensible recourse in the case of contraception failure.

In the above situation, one partner turning around and saying "Actually... I want to keep it" is breaking faith with the previously made agreement on how contraceptive failure would be dealt with, and the other partner is entirely within their rights to walk away. The consent to engage in sex in the first place was predicated on the understanding that a child would not be the result.

When it comes to one night stands, rather than long term relationships, the implicit agreement is the same - that a contraception failure will be resolved with the morning after pill or a very early term abortion. Nobody enters into a one night stand with the intention of creating a child.

If a woman or man has a strong moral objection to an early term abortion, they should make that absolutely clear to any sexual partner before they have sex. Flat. That way the partner can make an informed choice about risk, including whether they want to double/triple their contraceptive measures or just refuse to have sex in the first place.

Any child that is born should be the result of two parents who are happy to conceive together, in order to maximise their life chances.

If one parent does not consent to conception, then that parent has no obligation to raise that child, provided that their partner knew and understood that this was their position. A woman who knows her partner does not want a child should have no expectation that he will be a father to it. A man who knows his partner will not have an abortion should refrain from having sex with her, or he should get a vasectomy.

If you haven't spoken about it, then don't have sex at all in the first place.

I really hate the attitude on here that men can't have an opinion on anything and are to blame for everything. There are decent men out there and there are also women who the very opposite of decent

I think the “man-hating” on issues of important to females is a bit of a tired trope

FWIW I'm not adverse entirely to men walking away emotionally from a baby they don't want - I would judge him as being a useless pig, but in the long run parenting is very hard and children deserves to be raised by parents who actually want them and can help them grow into good people. But he should always be financially responsible, because kids always cost money. He would pay for his offspring if it was his wife or partner having a child with him, that shouldn't change just because he's not in a relationship with the mother of the child.

My DH still talks to this day about 'the baby that could of been' would be 16 now, his first GF had an abortion at 5 months pregnant and told him she miscarried... she then got pregnant again and had another abortion! His family begged her to not and even offered her money, he then walked in on her sleeping with his cousin... she sounds lovely doesn't she.

It takes two to create a baby so two to come to the decision together in an ideal world obviously... In the case of rape, abuse or having no contact with the farther then of course the decision lies solely on the woman. Two in a loving Marriage, relationship should make the decision together.

@HJWT yes she sounds a treat but I cannot believe they offered her money! It's a baby, not a car, you can't offer someone money to have a baby they don't want, how manipulative!

DH's brother always goes on about the "baby that could have been" with his ex, who at the time was 43, already had 2 teenagers and didn't want any more (accidental pregnancy). He's had a DD since with someone else since and, although he knows his DD likely wouldn't exist if his ex kept their baby, still wishes she'd gone through with it. Just makes me feel sorry for his DD and her mum TBH

You didn't really fix it because contraception can fail

That’s the risk you take. Pregnancy is a direct result from having sex. If you don’t understand that and take every precaution you can if you don’t want a child, you shouldn’t be having sex. Sure, if the contraception fails and there is a pregnancy, there needs to be a conversation but the final decision should always be with the person that is carrying the fetus.

@Flamingosnbears how would that work on a practical level then? Woman goes to doctor to request an abortion, and doctor says "have you got the fathers consent?". Surely she'd just say "don't know who he is, I was drunk/had a one night stand", no? I sure as hell would say I didn't know who the father was if it meant I could guarantee getting a termination over having a baby I didn't want.

@GunpowderGelatine

I come at this from the opposite angle - I had very difficult pregnancies. I had severe pre eclampsia in both. In the first I developed eclampsia. I had an emergency c section. In my 2nd I had a PPH. I still think I was very lucky to have had those experiences.

I had the experience of considering a termination for medical reasons. Ultimately I did make the decision (not to terminate) but I listened to my husband and I seriously considered his views. In my mind he had an equal part to play in the process, even though I had the final say.

I really don't think males can or should have any influence on a pregnant mother whether to abort or not. It's not their body, not their choice and however horrible this sounds they always have the choice to walk away or be there. A woman doesn't have the choice as she is the one to birth said child and go through all the processes and emotions a pregnant body brings.

Men don't get the pain, the hormones, the risk, and the 24hr care afterwards so sorry they shouldn't get a choice.

If they ever did I would hate to think what would become of many women.

@MamaLovesMango

But the woman also understands that pregnancy might occur. If a woman knows that, should she get pregnant accidentally, that she would have an abortion why does she have sex? Or at the very least should she not make this abundantly clear to any man that she is having sex with?

@AppleBlossomArseCheeks

I don't think men should have the final say. It has to be down to the woman.

That being said I don't think that it's easy for all men. Some won't get over a baby being aborted. Others, who maybe don't want to be fathers, won't be able to just walk away and financially that aren't able to.

I do think that both men and women should think far more carefully about having sex and seriously think about the consequences. Both men and women seem to be far too casual about it until it's too late.

"how to best do an unnatural job for us."

@PBo83 I don't really understand this, are you saying that men looking after children is unnatural?
In which case why would you expect to have any say at all in whether or not the pregnancy continues?

@Magenta82 in fairness I think @PBo83 was referring to the reason he joined MN because he's a stepfather and it didn't come naturally to him IYSWIM because I thought that at first but just think it was badly worded!