Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Abortions and men

286 replies

Lollypop27 · 03/02/2019 22:40

After watching tonight’s Call the midwife Dh and I had a discussion about terminations. We were talking about the how the state of New York passed a bill for abortions up to full term. It ended up quite heated.

I am of the mind that whatever I may or may not do in a situation has no bearing on what another woman would do and that it is not my right to decide for her. Any time any reason. Dh completely disagrees. Not on time limits or anything but he feels that the father of the child should have a decision and his thoughts should be taken in to consideration. I could kind of understand what he was saying but he couldn’t give me an answer when I said what if the woman didn’t want an abortion and the male did. Would he then have the right to force it upon her? He said it was a completely different thing. I disagree. If a male can can decide that the female keeps the child then surely he would be able to decide if she can’t?

This isn’t another thread about if you agree with terminations or not. Or the time limits but if you feel the male should have a decision.

OP posts:
CousinKrispy · 04/02/2019 17:55

doesn't mean we SHOULD dismiss, FFS, sorry!

LilQuim · 04/02/2019 19:22

@Weetabixandshreddies it's a tough one as a mother of a young man, isn't it?

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 19:38

@LilQuim
It really is.

As a mother of a daughter I feel differently because I think that as difficult as any decision would be she would have the ability to decide what she felt was right for her.

Whereas my son would have no say in it at all.

LilQuim · 04/02/2019 19:46

@Weetabixandshreddies exactly! And I completely agree that a women should have autonomy over her body (I did when I found out I was pregnant & ex suggested termination), but the thought terrifies me! I might lock him in the attic til he's 45. Hmm

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 19:52

LilQuim

I don't blame you.

Sometimes it feels like we've come so far, at others we haven't progressed at all.

I know it's not seen as very PC now but I do wonder at what we want men to be now.

Supportive and sensitive on the one hand but then their feelings should be switched off and mean nothing on the other hand.

And again, I totally agree that it should be a woman's decision. I just don't know how I would cope as a man having to face this.

Aquilla · 04/02/2019 19:59

I believe they are 50/50 and the woman just happens to be the vessel. So yes, he should certainly have a say!

PositivelyPERF · 04/02/2019 20:01

just happens to be the vessel. So yes, he should certainly have a say!

So what happens if the vessal does not want to continue the pregnancy? Are you saying they should be forced to?

Inliverpool1 · 04/02/2019 20:04

I actually had a man tell me, how could I claim to be pregnant at 10/20/30 weeks and until a child actually took breath it wasn’t a child. Some men have very strange views on pregnancy ime

LilQuim · 04/02/2019 20:06

@Weetabixandshreddies you & I have been sharing the same thoughts. I just can't bear thinking about it.

Have you had chats about consent too? We've had a few & although I'm fairly sure he isn't sexually active (he's not v sociable, doesn't go out, physical health probs - basically is at uni in the day then here), it's another conversation I'll repeat.

As you say, having a daughter, is sometimes easier.

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 20:33

@LilQuim

Consent - yes definitely. I think in some ways I've gone too far. I definitely expect more from him than from my daughter which is wrong isn't it?

It's like if both parties are drunk we expect the man to have the where with all to appreciate that the woman might not be fully able to consent yet readily accept that a drunk woman isn't able to be in control of herself and therefore can't be responsible for what happens. While I accept the argument behind it how do you explain this? How do you teach boys how to stay safe?

JacquesHammer · 04/02/2019 20:41

How do you teach boys how to stay safe?

Don’t get so drunk you don’t know what you’re doing.

Fairly sensible advice for boys and girls.

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 20:44

Fairly sensible advice for boys and girls.

Yes, exactly.

Except that blame is usually apportioned to the boy rather than equally to both.

JacquesHammer · 04/02/2019 20:44

Except that blame is usually apportioned to the boy rather than equally to both

He’s the one who can rape though...

Weetabixandshreddies · 04/02/2019 20:49

He’s the one who can rape though...

Yes I get that.

So what we are saying then is that a boy has to be more responsible than a girl? Because a girl doesn't have to accept any responsibility for herself if she's drunk? But a boy remains totally responsible at all times? Is that correct?

Caucho · 04/02/2019 22:52

I know the current law. Some people don’t agree with it though and think that it’s a woman’s right to abort at any time. I think the current rules have it right. There’s enough time already and there’s sufficient flexibility for serious disabilities and medical reasons

Placebogirl · 05/02/2019 00:42

Men have a right to be sad when a pregnancy they wanted is terminated: they do not have a right to impose that sadness on the woman who would have carried the pregnancy.

I have a son and a daughter, currently both much too young to have sex, but I am working with them on consent already--they know they have to ask before they touch, and that touching doesn't happen without their say so. I also really hope there is a decent contraceptive available for my son when the time comes, so he has some way to take responsibility (and yeah, I know, it won't be perfect!). However, I will be talking with my son about making sure the sex he has is responsible and respectful, because he doesn't have a say about what happens afterwards...and that's just life.

JacquesHammer · 05/02/2019 08:01

So what we are saying then is that a boy has to be more responsible than a girl? Because a girl doesn't have to accept any responsibility for herself if she's drunk? But a boy remains totally responsible at all times? Is that correct?

We’re saying don’t victim blame, by saying “she shouldn’t have been as drunk” when she’s the victim of a sexual assault/rape is saying “your fault. The perpetrator is always more responsible.

If boys/men are getting so drunk they are misinterpreting consent then yes, they’re at fault.

Weetabixandshreddies · 05/02/2019 08:13

I'm not saying she's to blame if she is drunk, let's be clear.

What I'm saying is if 2 people are equally drunk why do we say that for 1 person, being drunk means that they can't be responsible for themselves and don't have enough awareness to be able to legally give consent, yet the 2nd person despite being drunk should be responsible and have enough awareness to realise that, though consent has been given, can't be taken as consent?

I understand that being drunk is no defence - so if you drive whilst drunk then you are held responsible. But why aren't women held responsible for their actions whilst drunk? If you are a woman and drive drunk then you will be punished because it is accepted that you should have had enough awareness to not drive. If you are a woman and consent to sex whilst drunk you would be deemed to have not been able to give consent. Isn't that odd?

JacquesHammer · 05/02/2019 08:22

What I'm saying is if 2 people are equally drunk why do we say that for 1 person, being drunk means that they can't be responsible for themselves and don't have enough awareness to be able to legally give consent, yet the 2nd person despite being drunk should be responsible and have enough awareness to realise that, though consent has been given, can't be taken as consent?

Biology.

JacquesHammer · 05/02/2019 08:23

The drink driving analogy doesn’t stack up though. Drunk driving as a man and as a woman is the same act.

Weetabixandshreddies · 05/02/2019 08:50

JacquesHammer

I don't understand your argument.

If under the influence of drink, women are deemed to not have sufficient awareness to know what they are doing and so therefore cannot give consent, then how can they be charged with drunk driving? Presumably the were equally unaware and able to make good decisions?

JacquesHammer · 05/02/2019 08:54

If under the influence of drink, women are deemed to not have sufficient awareness to know what they are doing and so therefore cannot give consent, then how can they be charged with drunk driving? Presumably the were equally unaware and able to make good decisions?

You really don’t understand...?

Because the law treats the two situations as distinct and separate. But then you knew that.

ExplodedPeach · 05/02/2019 09:12

What I'm saying is if 2 people are equally drunk why do we say that for 1 person, being drunk means that they can't be responsible for themselves and don't have enough awareness to be able to legally give consent, yet the 2nd person despite being drunk should be responsible and have enough awareness to realise that, though consent has been given, can't be taken as consent?
@Weetabixandshreddies I agree with you on this ^^ (although I don't think the driving analogy is a good one). But telling woman not to get so drunk they don't know what they're doing is victim blaming Hmm but saying it to a man is par for the course.

However, from a pragmatic point of view, yes men do have to take more responsibility than women. Partly because they hold the balance of physical power, and partly because they cannot have a say in what happens in any pregnancy after the fact. That's not nice for men, but it's far better than the alternative whereby a woman could be forced to have, or not have, a baby.

Weetabixandshreddies · 05/02/2019 09:13

Because the law treats the two situations as distinct and separate. But then you knew that.

Yes it does but how? How can you be both responsible for your actions and not responsible at the same time, for the same reason?

IcedPurple · 05/02/2019 09:26

Not on time limits or anything but he feels that the father of the child should have a decision and his thoughts should be taken in to consideration.

Yes, his thoughts can be taken into consideration, but no way in hell does he get the casting vote. Ultimately it is - and must always be - the woman who makes the final decision.